guess who signed a scorecard

Chain rock · Post by **Chain rock** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:23 pm

I just dont see the point of people wanting 2nd place when the dog thier handling wins a hunt and deserves 1st place. To me thats a crock of sh$t trying to hold a dog back in open class or any class in order to try and win a truck load of dogfood at the end of the year. I thought the objective of competing in a trial was to win the hunt, 1st place..... Am I wrong? I saw where someone posted earlier and said that its not cheating, just bending the rules to thier advantage, but to me its cheating the hound out of what it rightfully deserves, I've yet seen a handler lock on and run the sh$t out of a rabbit like some of these HOY dogs. JMO

Chris Shoopman · Post by **Chris Shoopman** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:34 pm

ha i know a guy that won the world hunt and i dont rem where he placed at in the run off...only got 150lbs of dog food.....

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:39 pm

CHRIS WHITT wrote:Mike , Brad wrote what Tony told him to write(to the letter)I thought it would be funny to hear what everyone would have to say.We thought that everyone would think he was talking about Max but Danny ruined that in the first reply.

man,you guys kill me,always gotta blame it on the fat guy.

i may have let the cat outta the bag on wich dog,but my post did not make the thread turn into what it is becoming,and that is a tony upton slammoramma

like i said earlier,brad may not have intended it to go bad but it is headin that way,more and more

right now it is somewhat civil,but i have a fealing it is gonna get nasty as usual.

CHRIS WHITT · Post by **CHRIS WHITT** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:48 pm

Easy biggin,no body is trying to put you in the spot light.Shoot Danny I thought you would enjoy seeing someone else besides you getting bashed for once.

Hatfield · Post by **Hatfield** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:57 am

CHRIS WHITT wrote:Easy biggin,no body is trying to put you in the spot light.Shoot Danny I thought you would enjoy seeing someone else besides you getting bashed for once.

That just aint right

ROFLMAO

bradadkins · Post by **bradadkins** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:21 am

Chris, That is exactly what I mean. The intent of the post was to stir the pot. Why? Is there anything to gain by starting an argument about the rules? Why would Tony want you to post it? To see who would trash talk him? I guess Brad fell right in to that. You cant make me believe Brad didnt know what was going to happen from the start. I like Brad, but aint none of us perfect.

Mike,
You are right..was stirring..just didn't want to run down anyones name at my expense. Seen that but it was already rollin.I don't like doing that where people can't defend themselves. If i got a issue i'd rather talk to that guy in person ya know. We are alot alike there and I got respect for that. We can just keep the post on rules and not so personal ya know.

As far as the rules go..rules are rules. As long as people use ARHA's guidelines I don't have a problem with any of it. If the rules change then we must too.

I guess what I am saying is "Don't hate the playa..hate the game"

Brad

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:23 am

town hound wrote:Just curious if your dog wins the final cast and the you don't sign the score card, does it place? I've never seen it happen and as a judge wouldn't know what to do if it did happen.

If you don't sign the scorecard, your dog is essentially scratched.
However, It doesn't advance the 2nd place dog to first.

If the handler scratches the dog, it moves second place up to first.

I was watching the finals at a local hunt. There was only a few minutes left. A handler was going to win, but was holding his dog back. He asked the guy in second (only other dog that had score), "Do you want a first place on your dog?"
He said, "No, I don't want it if I didn't win it."
So the handler didn't sign the scorecard.

If the other guy had said, "Yes, I would like to have a first." The handler was going to scratch his dog before the end of the hunt.

wvduece · Post by **wvduece** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:18 am

what is the purpose of wanting to hold the dog back sounds kinda fishy to me dont he want to run his open dog in champion class or whats the deal still smells fishy ( I HAVE SEEN GUYS SPOT LIGHT DEER N SHOOT A REAL NICE BUCK N GET IT MOUNTED N BRAG ON WHAT A NICE BUCK THEY GOT ) IS HOLDING A DOG BACK RELATE TO THIS STORY BOUT THE BUCK IM CURIOUS I WOULD FEEL BETTER IF MY DOG WON BY THE RULES HMMMMMMMMMMMM

JB

wvduece · Post by **wvduece** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:33 am

I REMBER BACK IN MY HIGH SCHOOL DAYS I BOXED A LIL BIT SOMETIMES WE WOULD GO TO ANOTHER TOWN N FIGHT A ONE NITE CARD I KNOW GUYS THAT HAD 8 OR 9 FIGHTS N SHOULD HAVE FAUGHT IN OPEN CLASS BUT THEY WOULD FIGHT IN NOVICE JUST TO GET A WIN AFTER 3 FIGHTS THEY HAD TO MOVE UO TO OPEN CLASS SO THEY WOULD SAY THEY JUST HAD 2 FIGHTS SO THEY COULD FIGHT A INEXPERINCED GUY SOUNDS KINDA SIMILIAR TO HOLDING A DOG BACK SOOOOO I CAN COMPETE AGANIST DOGS THATS NOT AS EXPERINCED JUST MY THOUGHTS JB

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:58 am

Yes, you've got it.
It boils down to letting a 4 or 5 year old dog in its prime whip up on pups.

I feel the same as you, if you don't want the first don't enter the trial.
However, there is/was a loophole in the rules that made it possible for people to do this. So some people realizing they had a good run on hound of the year points, held their dogs back.

Tony campaigned Max through the open class making top 10 hound of the year each year. Tony was not the only one, but probably the most successful using this method.

I'll speak for myself, but I am sure others feel the same.
I had a young male that was doing well. He was a little too young, but he was holding his own and the pressure didn't seem to have adverse effects.

I know he is not ready for a first, and only a streak of luck would he ever get a first being so young an inmature. Obviously, I still want the dog to place him or at least run more than the first round.
On several occasions the dog was cast out against Max.
He did well and lost to Max each time.

I have heartburn, and my wife was really annoyed, with the fact the we were running our little league open pup against a dog that in all reality would have probably been in the grand champion class with that type of ability.

That is why some dislike Tony. Though he was not the only one doing it, just the most successful using the loophole in the rules.

From what I understand, that rule is supposed to change.
You can't force someone to sign a scorecard. However, they will have to make penalites for not signing if your dog was the winning dog.

Example would be making the rule state that you had 1 hour to sign the scorecard or file a protest. If not, the dog would be banned for 3 months or something to that effect. Three months out of trialing season would probably eliminate most dogs from HOY.

I don't think there is an effective way to stop people from scratching their dog to avoid winning. You don't need a reason to scratch your dog. It can be done at any time for any or no reason.

dogwhisperer · Post by **dogwhisperer** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:53 pm

i just dont see the big idea or why anyone would care.... do you people complain when you show up at a field trial and there is a dog there that has won a big hunt or the world ... i mean basically what you are saying is this dog dont belong in the open class or a dog that is 5 years old that just doesnt have a win yeah lets throw it out of the hunt because it doesnt fit the age group... sounds to me like everybody just wants the game to be in their favor and dont want to compete against a good dog.and as for your pups if there not ready what are they doing there that follows right back to showing up to win.if you cant beat the best dog there there is no point in showing up correct just my thoughts

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:15 pm

dogwhisperer wrote:i just dont see the big idea or why anyone would care....

Would you care if your kid was playing little league sports and someone held there 17 Y.O. kid held back so he could dominate?

It is not against the rules, but as you can tell it is not well recieved by those that got up at 4:00 AM drove 2 hours, spent their time and money only to be beaten by a dog that is much more mature and experienced than the typical open dog.

That defeats the purpose of the open, champion, and grand classes.
Which I feel were set up to compete dogs with like experience and skills.

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:29 pm

you all are makin it sound like tony held max back to beat up on your dogs,truth is,the only reason he held him back was to win the hoy,and now he leaves him at home and only runs him big hunts,if he was doin it to beat up on your dogs,he would have ran him every hunt this year but has he?........no

he only runs him big hunts now

arha changed the rule on hoy so he can't run him for it anymore,rule is now a open dog can only win it 2 times

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:16 pm

I know it wasn't to "beat up" on other dogs, that is just a result.
It wasn't about winning, it was about points.
He desired second place to get points (no points for scratching or not signing the scorecard).
If he saw Max was going to win, he would scratch him.
If he saw that Max won, he would not sign the scorecard.

In the process of chasing points, Max eliminated a lot of dogs that were truly open dogs. That is what people disliked.

Tony and Max are always the center of this topic, but there were more people using the same tactic.

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guess who signed a scorecard

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