heres a gooden for ya..

[SilverZuk]

As far as the call, Lynn has it right.

A hound shall be barred from all competitions in ARHA licensed hunts for one year if he/she runs off game 3 times in a calendar year.

And this is the reason an off-game call should not be given lightly. Too easy to eliminate your competition for HOY, and the black mark is a hard hit on the dog's chances for HOF points later.

I have heard running off game and HOF brought up by several people.
Is a dog still eliglible for HOF if it has an off game chase?
I feel that it should be a mark against a HOF entry, but I also agree with Bev because there are errors in judging.

I don't feel that you have to see a deer/fox/major offgame to call it.
An experienced houndsman knows when a chase is not right.
Personally, I will err in favor of the hounds. I know there are times that I am suspicious of my dogs because one dog isn't in the race, or a buck rabbit takes them on a long run. I let them run until I am sure they are on offgame.

[Lynn Perkins]

Lynn, I have and did read the rule before I posted the first time. To me the dogs red describes is doing exactley what the rule says it is trying not to scratch. I feel alot of people need to learn that if theres an off game race durring a trial and there is a dog that doeasnt come right back to you and stand at your feet doesnt mean its running the off game. Happenes ALOT and It aint right. No where does that rule you posted say it only has once chance to check it out.

I had figured you read it,since you are a judge.I didn't say that a dog has to come back to your feet,go back and read what i said,return to hunting for a rabbit.Really Ryan i think your reading me wrong,i have ran with the dog on trash before or postion myself to see what dogs are runnin and what dogs are not runnin the trash.Don't want to scratch'em i want to be right in my decision.
The way i read the rule,it say the dog that harks in and return immediately to hunting for a rabbit,in my mind that in 1 chance.I haven't read where it says can keep harking in as many times as it wants as long as it don't bark,a dog that is doing that is not sure what he/she wants to do run or not run,a dog such as dog C knew it didn't want to run it based on scent not how much mouth dog A was giving.
Preacher ask for opinions,i gave mine and you gave yours,nothing against you(don't take it that way) just the way things are by the rules we judge by

[Bev]

SilverZuk, I'm glad that you personally give the dogs the benefit of the doubt, because there's always a chance we're wrong. Ask Jimmie Abshire about the time he came up to go rabbit hunting and breed Jackson to one of our bitches. While out hunting, our Dolly bitch went screaming out on a straight line by herself for about 600 yds (same farm we deer hunted)......and then she brought the rabbit back the whole 600 yds still screamin'. Straight line. Even I would have suspected an off-game chase, but it wasn't. I think Jimmie was the one who shot the rabbit.

Even experienced hunters can't always tell. Most often, time is what will tell, lol. In my experience, (just my experience) the dogs refusing the deer will come back very shortly or go hunt up a rabbit. The over-broke dogs will be cowering at your feet or under the truck, and the deer runner will be in a new zipcode. The taggers that won't come back should be scratched. The hound that goes out to honor, comes back, goes back out to honor again, comes back...those dogs are generally young and don't really know WTH is going on and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

It would be a shame to stand there and let that dog continue to honor into a bad line, and risk MAKING him a deer-runner when he wasn't one before. That serves nobody's best interest. So in this type scenario, you've got a confirmed deer chase. Scratch the dogs still running and tagging, call dead track, hook that undecided dog up with the others and move. Good thing I'm not a judge, eh? LOL!

[Pine Mt Beagles]

SOUNDS LIKE THE JUDGE NEEDS DEER BROKE.AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE SAW THE-- DEER-- BEFORE THEY TOOK THE LINE .AFTER DOG-- A --TOOK THE LINE -------IT'S SCRATCH TIME,,, DOG ---B ---WENT OT THE DOG CAME"" BACK"" -THE DOG BARKED HE WENT BACK --200 YDS IS A LONG TIME.SOUNDS LIKE DOG--B-- WAS THE ONE THE JUDGE WAS AFTER.OR HE WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE RACE SOON AS HE SAW THE DOG TAKE THE LINE,ON THE DEER HE SAW. JUST MY THOUGHT'S!!!!!!!!!

PINE MT BEAGLES

[bill (flint river )]

i have never ran AHRA, will the judge tell u to handle dogs ? seems to me the dogs should have ben handle then re cast. and dog A should of had his ass whooped all the way back to the truck....

[Tommy Oliver]

Ricky
In the situation you have laid before us. It would be hard not to scratch hound B. It would be an easy dog to break for me though. I have a feel to agree with Lynn on this one. Went back too many times. Bev. you are right as to pick it out like you did. It is my belief too many judges get in a hurry during an event like an off game race. The ten min. deal in the rules gives a judge the time they need to sort it all out. I do not believe judges use this time given like they should. Folks we are talking mainly about deer races. Given my experiance on this, you will !!! know when you have a deer race. Ninety percent of most deer races I have been involved in, the deer will leave the area, and not return for a long while if they do. Bev when you have a hound gone after it screamed bloody murder while leaving, and the other hounds are with you, or still in the vicinity hunting, then you dont have to see the deer to know what is going on. Most of the time you will never see the deer on a deer race, and it all happens so fast. Yes I know some judge may have it in for someone, and there is room for errors, but I know if a judge keeps their head about them, and uses the 10 min. wisely no hound should be scrached save the ones that should be. Having broke dogs off deer is a must if your going to hunt here in middle Tennessee. If not it will come back, and bite you somewhere along the line. It is my belief that every young hound should be deer broke, whether they need it or not. This should be done after they start running their rabbits good. It is, and always will be the owners fault, and their responsibility if their hounds run deer. If you own one you cant break then get rid of the problem. If you dont then you will have a bigger problem, and cause a problem for other beaglers, and their hounds. If we done the responsible thing we would have a lot less problems in this area. This also applies when we are judgeing an event such as this one. RESPONSIBILITY DO THE RIGHT THING BY THE HOUNDS & FOR THE OWNERS.

Tommy

[bill (flint river )]

i guess i can answer my own ??? as i went and read what lynn posted. WHY didnt the judge have the dogs handle after he seen the deer chase??? Was there a rabbit up and being run at the time the deer chase was going ?

[PREACHERS KENNEL]

no rabbit waas up,my dog checked it and returned to hunting away from the deer runner. dog b checked it didnt like it but kept goin to it ...however the judge did yell catch the dogs shorty after it started said he wanted to make sure dog A hadnt jumped a rabbit he was pretty sure he qwas on deer and he seen the deer cross filed again with dog A goin after it and B in tow after the deer was seen again.but B never barked!as best he could tell.!

[Tommy Oliver]

Bill, no rabbit was being ran. Deer race all the way. Yes you are right as well as Bev. the judge should have had the other dogs caught, picked up the two running off, then recast the remaining hounds to finish the cast. That would have been the reponsible thing to do. LOL

Tommy

[Pine Mt Beagles]

TOMMY
ONLY (1) DOG WAS RUNNING OFF,AS I UNDERSTAND IT DOG- B- KEPT CHECKING DOG- A- AND NEVER GAVE ANY- MOUTH-,YOU CAN'T SCORE A- STRIKE- OR A -CHECK- IF THE DOG DOES NOT GIVE-- MOUTH --I COULD NOT JUSTIFY SCRATCHING IT.SINCE IT DID NOT GIVE-- MOUTH-- AND KEPT COMMING BACK.----AFTER THE JUDGE SAW THE DEER AND DOG--A--TOOK THE LINE- THE RACE SHOULD HAVE BEEN--- STOPPED, SINCE THERE WAS NO QUESTION IT WAS A--- DEER--BEV-- SAID EARLIER ,A DEER RACE CAN DEVELOPE A LOT OF WAY'S,,FOR REAL AND--NOT,,---DON'T MISUNDERSTAND MY COMMENT'S I HATE A DEER RUNNER AND WILL NOT TOLLERATE THEM--BUT I HAVE SAW SEVERAL-- DEER-- RACES THAT AFTER THE JUDGE SCRATCHED THE PACK AND WENT TO THE TRUCK,, THE HOUNDS WERE CAUGHT OFF A RABBIT.I HAVE NEVER HAD A DOG SCRATCHED FOR RUNNING A DEER I DID HAVE A GOOD FOX RACE ONCE.THE PACK WAS SCRATCHED.---BUT IT SURE WAS A GOOD RACE FOR AWHILE

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[THALL]

ok u got a dog running deer judge knows its a deer he seen it ..ok now another dog has harked into dog A lets call him. so dog B harks in goes to the dog smells the scent leaves him dog A barks again and moves on more DOG B harks in again ,,, this repeats itself a few times they cover maybe 200 yards a time of 10-15 passes by i guess. ur the judge how did u handle this?? scrath the deer runner is a given what do u do with dog B??scratch or not >?? he never barked ......read ur rules and reply ......just thought this might make for some good learning for us all!

10-15 minutes? if the judge seen the deer then the track was hot and would have been moved way over 200 yards. just my opion but dog A is a walkie talkie or running something besides a deer!

[PREACHERS KENNEL]

not a doubt it was deer.

[BrewerMo]

I understood it the way Pine Mt. did. I didn't think dog B was giving mouth on the track and then quiting, I thought he was harking on his way there( as the rule states is not wrong) and returning to hunting for a rabbit. Most any competative(sp?) beagle that hasn't been fried off deer would probably do the same thing a time or two before it decided to iggnore it.
Kinda hard to say without being there but JMO...

[Tommy Oliver]

Pine

You make a good case for not scratching the hound. I am sure other judges would not do it either. In speaking, only about the hound. If allowed to keep doing that, then leaves the door wide open for heartbreak. I dont think you hate deer runners more than I do LOL, because I depise them. I have quit huntin with other people in the past because of their deer runners. Now I hunt with them, just have broke hounds that will not go, no matter how good it sounds. I hate them so bad that the rules I believe should be harsher than they are. Nothing worse than going to a trial, and have a good young hound destroyed by the deer runners. To top it off their owners know they run deer. What a sad deal that is. Just my opinon, but hound B committed it self too many times. It has already opened the door as I stated earlier, dont let it go through.

Tommy

[Tommy Oliver]

By the way, I have wittnessed hounds runnin deer silent.


Tommy