Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Beagles in Show. Whether your beagle shows full-time in the ring or part-time at the field trials, this forum can be helpful and informative for those seeking better conformation in their beagles, and presenting them at their best to the judge.

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ohlinger.s
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

Honey Pot Hounds wrote:Moore Beagles I think that is going to happen real soon :nod: Donny just sent me a picture of a Field X Show pup he has that looks like she'd finish really fast in the AKC show ring :whip:
My question to you fellows would be this: Do you tend to like the dogs to be super submissive to you? Our showdogs need to feel very bold and confident and have a "no man is my enemy" attitude. Many of the dogs that I have adopted or observed that have belonged to hunters seem super submissive and literally afraid of men. You absolutely can't have that in the show ring...they must gait back to the judge and pose with a gentle, loving, alert and proud expression ( A tail up and wagging helps bigtime too!). Sckulkers are Losers :loser: in the showring. Tails between the legs on the go around don't cut it. WHY is this common, in my impression, amongst field beagles??

LOL this is a bit of a reach in the direction of a generality. Come to a field and trialer and see how many of those barking anxious to go dogs are skulking and afraid of men. At least you won't find any around my truck. maybe its the people you get the dogs from but i can say the exact same thing about show dogs alot that i have seen are shy and intimidated it might be the change of environment for them takeing some getting used to. I have seen show dogs that Don and Dave have used to breed into there breeding program two them being ukc world show champions owned by Dick McVay both had outstanding conformation and both had Big Money offered on them from akc show people. the dogs had proper conformation but did'nt have the heart to go all day every day, and both did'nt have the build i saw the oppositte from another said they saw these dogs were down right sore after a 2 hour hunt and could'nt be conditioned to compete with the hunting stock that dick mcvay kept. our thirtyoughtsix dogs could literaly run those show dogs into the dirt as far as stamina and conditions went. both dogs had too much muscle and where too heavy boned to be able to compete in a tough field trial such as large pack on hare or other such field competitions. I compare it to Marathon runners how many look like they spend hours in the gym building muscle mass, not too many the best distance runners are slim and skinny not heavy structured bones, Like the standard likes to call for. I do like a blocky head with nice muzzle and good ear set i think that helps to keep the briars from catcing there ears rather than the dogs with high ear sets and slim trimmed heads, with no stop. These are opinions and show people do not know what it takes to have a all day non stop hound and field people do not take the time to breed for a conformationaly sound hound if they're dogs are already going everyday all day non stop. A show dog is not built for it and cannot last. They have to be lighter bones and more solid long muscled than bulky muscled and heavy boned.

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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by Moore Beagles »

Shawn I agree with what you said, there are very few dogs that are bred or trained to endure a large pack marathon, and heavy bones are only gonna weigh a thick framed dog down even more. I have never seen and only heard the chases these beagles endure. I'm talking about the shorter formats, the large pack hare formats are a whole different animal.
A Whippet would be better suited for that kinda chase.
I have talked to people who have had some very well conditioned dogs, tryed a large pack format, and discovered that the competion doesn't even start till they are out for at least an hour. Then decided that wasn't thier cup of tea.
On Our little pack hunts we are aready in the truck heading back to the club house. I'd rather have a beagle built for the shorter sprint, than the 24 hours of Lemans that those large pack beagles go through. I also agree those old artist drawings of the old beagles champs don't look like our square nose boys of today.
You know more about that Than I do Shawn, but I like a stocker sturdy built beagle. Thats what I liked about your dog out of Chip! He has that good solid frame, with good comformation. My show bred male has never had a run longer than 3-4 hours, so my guess, compared to large pack he's a sprinter. He's Built like Barry Bonds, but DRUG Free.... :dance:
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ohlinger.s
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

Lol Ringer is a step in the right direction for me. My lucky dog is a bit stockier dog as well but his bone and muscle build is lighter still and longer than a show dog other than that he is a GREAT looking dog. He would have a hard time in large pack on hare as well b/c he is built larger than say my Blitz bred dogs. Ringer is muscley which comes from chipp and his blocky head as well but he is very long muscled from The bitch Gridiron first and Ten toni. Those dogs stay slick and don't put on extra weight but if you put you're hands on him he is completely solid suggesting that he can and does go all day (except for heat exhaustion which he struggles with in the hotter months). He has a light blocky frame which to me suggests alot of traits the standard calls for without the heavy bone stucture but still would have a hard time in a large pack on hare trial. His rib cage is not large enough for all the wind he would need to last that long. He is good for a day or two of hard hunting on cottontail though. Maybe we can post some pics some of field hunters and show people and critique our dogs LOL TC and JC will tell you you're not going to hurt my feelings i'm honest about all my dogs and love to get to criticism b/c people see things i don't see b/c it's "MY" dog lol. As far as balance and such issues. I can see how it is an issue with those bulky show dogs but the lighter field framed hounds don't the issues with balance that i've seen they are lighter and more agile, they have more strength b/c of the muscle build they have vs. there body size. It's about endurance more so than balance and proportions. Is the dog built for endurance or weight lifting ? weight lifting would require more balance than an endurance task would. This is just my thoughts i'm waiting for some disagreeances lol i like to hear both sides of the story so i'm introduceing the other side of it. Now this is just my opinion and what i think about the Chipp off the block and fire river micheal dogs is people are doing so well with the pups b/c they are breeding the dogs to the right bitches such as Toni who is now gone is a cross I would love to own 4 more dogs out of, but that being said people do so well with these dogs b/c they throw great heads and a great shaped head can make the rest of the body look better than it really is. chipp pups are often muscley hounds with good straight legs as well. straight legs are crucial to building good endurance hounds. If you are makeing crosses of chipp or fire river micheal to show dog built dogs or heavy boned beagles you are putting too much natural weight on the dogs. Crosses with chipp and micheal are good to see b/c it is improveing the conformation and in my opinion makeing beagles look better when you breed to not only a good but great solid built female like Toni was she was a abit long but great running gear good rib lenth allowing for more for the lungs to work (something i think show dogs lack), but micheal and chipp are not the typical heavy boned show dogs both are built SOLID, and are in the right direction of how a hunting dog should be built, they can however throw too much bulk on a heavy boned bitch in my opinion. Such as TC and JC's dog they have i can't remember her name but perhaps they can help me with that. Dogs like micheal and chipp are great to outcross with to improve the conformation and not lose too much on the field performance side of things. However they're are going to be sacrifices on both accounts as the two standards of a field hound and show hound just do not head in the same direction in my opinion. The key in what those two studs produce i think is the hard solid "long" muscle build they produce rather than that bulky over built look of many show dogs out there, and again you are only to get that if you breed to a good solid slim field bitch.
Last edited by ohlinger.s on Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by Windkist »

[quote="ohlinger.s"]Lol i obviously don't have the knowledge some of you have on this topic, but my feelings are if you feel you have to build the dogs muscle tone by givieng it a work out or you're dog is "soft" from keeping it in a crate ???? then the dog propably is'nt what you're trying to make it out to be anyways. I could'nt ever see myself putting a dog on a treadmill to define muscle tone. I could'nt imagine keeping a dog in a crate either. I guess it's a totaly different world but dog show fanicers could learn a few things from field trialers in how a dog develops i supposed[quote]

I just wanted to clarify that our dogs certainly don't LIVE in crates. Mine only sleep there at night time if they are not in our kennel runs. I do not believe in leaving dogs outside all night for various reasons but, mainly so, that nobody gets to barking at 2am and wakes up the whole neighborhood or makes me get up to kick some butts!! ;-) Our dogs run all day long as much as they want to. It may not be through brush or over hill and dale but, they get a lot of good exercise here and none of it is forced as in treadmilling which I find to be worthless. Dogs are meant to move and turn and stop and start head up, head down etc. Not in some fabricated way on a bike or treadmill moving only in one direction.

I like showing dogs. Most here like hunting dogs. We definately live in different worlds but, I can completely respect those that hunt and I have really enjoyed seeing dogs running rabbits when I've had the chance. Its definitely a beautiful thing to watch (most of the time) We each have our hobbies and I see nothing wrong with either one. It would be nice to see the dogs closer to one form. I've learned a lot here and I do respect each persons right to do as they choose with their dogs ;-)

Leah
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ohlinger.s
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

Lol Leah i don't point fingers i was'nt doing any accuseing just makein my statement. Hope it did'nt offend you but it should offend the people who do those such things i guess. The point of dogs getting excercise does prove my point even more though there is more to just running for joy and running to do you're job. These large pack hare hunts are of a different world as mooreboy said something you'd have to attend to understand. I would suggest visiting one if you have'nt already and you gain awhole new concept about how a dog would have to be built in order to succeed in this format. Some dogs just physicaly cannot handle includeing a few of mine. Here is a picture of my Sunday hunt these are 4 of my 6 broke solid running dogs. Maybe you guys can critique them from what you see the dogs on the left and Trouble and Shamrock they are lake ogemaw casie descendants you can see they are more streamlineds dogs and are what i'm refering to as an all day everyday dog. good straight legs light bone frames and a good bit longer than you're typical boxy show dog. the other two are Lucky and Ringer. They are alil heavier boned more conformationaly sounds but still more muscley than heavey bone. those two do not last as long as the other two do on hard hunts. They had just accomplished roughly 5-6 hours of solid run time this past sunday when this picture was taken. This was nothing compared to what it would take to do well in a large pack on hare trial, but still the two on the right where stiff and sore when i got them home and would not come out of there boxes, they are not in as good of condition as i should have them in right now either and ringer the far right dog was swollen from drinking about a gallon of water which makes him look heavier than he is.
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

P.S TC and JC perhaps you guys could help me out and post a picture of Chance who is in my opinion built almost PERFECT for a combination show and field hound!!! Chance is a great looking dog that is a perfect combination of muscle and somewhat light framed. His head is great long enough snout for the sniffing job and good neck length. He's a bit longer than a "boxy" shaped hound which makes his strides longer in my opinion so he can cover more ground. I can't understand why A.K.C showers are not breeding dogs built more like Chance . He still has a bit too much body mass for a large pack style hound but then again i kno my example of a large pack hare hound is a bit out of praciticality for most people.

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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by TC »

This Would be the Dog Shawn was talking about..
AKC CH/UKC CCH Keepsakes Crewse-M Mizz T
Mizzt is a great little 13" hound and looks Fantastic in the Ring
BUT in the field she is taking 2 to 3 steps For every one the others are taking and just cannot last She has Speed For Short Distances but can not run more than a couple hours before she is Wore Down We have had many Compliments on her movement in the Ring but She is just to heavy Boned and To Blocky to make it in the field.
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I have to Agree With Shawn I like a little thinner Boned longer bodied dog BUT we all know that aint whats winning in the Ring.
I also think that it Goes in Spurts the Different "Styles" one judge may like the Blocky Type others like a little less Bone.
P.S TC and JC perhaps you guys could help me out and post a picture of Chance
Sure Shawn Always Lookin For a reason To Show off Ol Chance!!! LMAO
Chance was one of those Dogs that has Done well in the UKC Showring and on the bench and has placed in the field on Multiple occasions in AKC SPO UKC PP UKC H&H and ARHA PP BUT Alas Just caint get by those AKC Judges They just never Liked him To narrow in the rear they said!! Angles not quite right!! not enough Bone Ect Ect OH Well hes my Bud and Goes With me Any time there is a Rabbit to Run I have seen him run 4 or 5 hours a day 3 or 4 days in a row he does Get stiff But then again Dont we All LOL
UKC/CCH HBSCH
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And just thought I would throw in a pic of lugNut What you can get breeding Show and Field together
he is AKC pointed and ARHA BCH only needs a best male to be a UKC CCH and HBSCH have been Busy Runnin him in ARHA and just have not Put him in Any UKC hunts or Shows this year Guess i need to do that LOL
ARHA BCH UKC RBIMBS Crewse-N-Lug Nut
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Like Shawn Was saying Go ahead pick em Apart you Aint gonna hurt our feelings LOL
Now None of these Dogs Would probably Do well in a Large pack Format Either!!!
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

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ohlinger.s wrote:Lol Leah i don't point fingers i was'nt doing any accuseing just makein my statement. Hope it did'nt offend you but it should offend the people who do those such things i guess. The point of dogs getting excercise does prove my point even more though there is more to just running for joy and running to do you're job. These large pack hare hunts are of a different world as mooreboy said something you'd have to attend to understand. I would suggest visiting one if you have'nt already and you gain awhole new concept about how a dog would have to be built in order to succeed in this format. Some dogs just physicaly cannot handle includeing a few of mine. Here is a picture of my Sunday hunt these are 4 of my 6 broke solid running dogs. Maybe you guys can critique them from what you see the dogs on the left and Trouble and Shamrock they are lake ogemaw casie descendants you can see they are more streamlineds dogs and are what i'm refering to as an all day everyday dog. good straight legs light bone frames and a good bit longer than you're typical boxy show dog. the other two are Lucky and Ringer. They are alil heavier boned more conformationaly sounds but still more muscley than heavey bone. those two do not last as long as the other two do on hard hunts. They had just accomplished roughly 5-6 hours of solid run time this past sunday when this picture was taken. This was nothing compared to what it would take to do well in a large pack on hare trial, but still the two on the right where stiff and sore when i got them home and would not come out of there boxes, they are not in as good of condition as i should have them in right now either and ringer the far right dog was swollen from drinking about a gallon of water which makes him look heavier than he is.
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damit!! these quote things are not workin right! I wasn't offended at all. I think that some hunters think our show dogs are pampered and sleep on a silk fluffy pillow LOL That couldn't be farther from the truth. After all they are still beagles and do all the normal beagle things. I'd love to attend more hunts but, its just not possible here. We don't have gundog clubs for beagles in Utah. If I did hunt I wouldn't be looking for the raciest hound for speed most likely. I prefer a beagle of more square porportions rather than a racy long legged hound. I would want something with speed but, it need not run ALL day cuz I'd likely be tired by then and looking for the nearest diner for lunch and beer!! LOL

I think your hounds are well built and look like they'd last all day. Nice balance to them.

Hey! at least were all talking ;-)

Leah
PS: not sure why but, pictures for me are all cut in 1/2 on this board????
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ohlinger.s
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

LOL i forgot bout ol lug nut my possible stud for applesauce !!! LOL. Lug looks great in the top picture at the field trial he has all the extra weight off of him and he looks like he's in shape to run some rabbits!! He's a bit extra with all that muscle (just my opinion) he gets bulky muscle mass when you run him alot it looks like, but he certainly looks like a solid cottontail hound that picture!! the show pic he looks like a pretty show dog but abit of weight on for being in good hunting condition Lol, but yea Chance man that dog is my idea of a perfect rabbit hound he looks like he's built to run and good length on him breaking that boxy show dog mold. Great front legs with good back legs to push him along. Ribs are good and deep and long to support a big set of lungs once he starts huffing and puffing i think that is ringers problem is he his ribs are too narrow and short to give him alot of breatheing room and lug looks like he "may" have that problem too I don't know much about that just my perception. Maybe you guys can get into angles or me as i'm still not reall sure about that i know i've went over it with you and JC before at the house evaluating dogs!

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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

This is Trouble somewhat stacked lol the camera man is'nt the best but ya just have to excuse that. What do you guys think ? Here is what i don't like about her build. She could use a bit more blockiness to her head,but i think the has a pretty decent head on her for what she is bred to do. she does'nt have the type of feet i like and she passed that trait to a few of her pups sired by lucky. I like tight round feet hers a bit longer more so than round, but not as bad as some dogs i've seen. She is what i'm talking about in light boned and long muscles, you can see her muscle tone very well with out her looking like she is pumping iron she is a strong solid dog, but not overly bulky due to over exaggerated muscles and her bone structure is sufficient to support her build but not heavy by anymeans. This is a dog that is bred by Large pack on hare champions and international field champions her sire and grandparents on the top side are all international field champions and dams side is a list of all hunting beagle champions all the way back on a 4 generation ped. She is a bit long in the dog show world but i think she is just perfect length personaly. and you can't tell her tail is too long and a bit limp not much "underbrush" which i like anyhow.
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Please feel free to pick her apart as well.

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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by TC »

Ohlinger,
Here is one of the best sites for a written description I have found of evaluation of a dog granted it is an ARHA site, however it is the most descriptive I have found.
http://www.arha.com/littlepack/lp_frameset.htm
I refer to this site often when looking at the dogs. It helps me visualize what I am trying to identify in a dog.

Here is a great diagram, don't know who published it but sure would like to get my hands on that book to read everything it has to say. But the diagram I believe was posted some time back by Southern Beagles.
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I think this is a very good diagram in describing where the bone placement should be on a beagle, however like Leah has said before you also need to take into consideration tendons and muscle tone and the muscle itself.
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

ohlinger.s
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

Heres the rest while i'm at it i guess.

Lucky
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Ringer
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Shamrock
Now shamrock is prbly a show ring nightmare lol but this is the dog that will outlast anyother dog in my kennel it's not just bc his heart, but b/c of his build his muscle to bone ratio and legs vs. body size this dog can carry himself longer than anything else i've ever owned. It's not conformationaly sound but it is what makes a dog last in the field. Tell me how to get the stamina this dog has out a blockier dog and i will bow down to you!!! Please feel free to nit pick at him as well, he is prbly the easiest target out of the group.
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

Here is the biggest beagle tragedy of my LIFE!!!!!!! This dog will knock you're socks off!!!!!!!! He is ringer's full brother out of chipp and Toni this is why i wanted to see another cross of chipp and toni soo bad i could taste it unfortunately toni is passed before the cross came again. This is Soco and lol yes none other than the infamous Don McVay himself standing him lol i just took the pic b/c i had no clue how to stand him at the time. I bought this dog after he was a year old and he had'nt even been started yet. I had him going in the field and he was on his way to be every bit as tough as ringer is in the field until his untimely death. This was a tragedy to lose this dog he could have championed out in a.k.c and this picture does'nt even do him justice!! He was great looking dog!!! I'd love to still have him.
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by TC »

I think Luck is one handsome beagle! Ringer is no slouch either. Ohlinger you have got some nice dogs. That last dog you posted is a nice dog too.

Ohlinger I think you have a good eye for dogs. You keep going and we just might see you on the end of a lead in the show arena! :angel:
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Re: Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

Post by ohlinger.s »

haha doubt it buddy!!LMAO

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