Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

wvbill · Post by **wvbill** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:05 pm

Okay,

The photos thornie keeps posting is the last straw. It has gotten entirely too boring.

Lets talk about angles....

What should we be looking for? Be descriptive

Bill

TC · Post by TC » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:46 pm

wvbill,
I look for 45 degree angles from whithers to shoulder to elbow same on the rear from top of him to the knee joint in the flanks to the hawks. I look for from the floor to the high point of the whithers a straight line, and from the from the middle of the rear foot at the floor a striaght line up to the base or back of the tail. One thing I did learn from a very good coon hound judge to check the gait of the dog to make sure all the angles and the legs line up properly is to take the dog and walk them in wet sand and look where each foot lands. Their step should mirror a horses step. as the front foot comes up the back foot should be stepping into that paw print. Leah and Cindy are probably better at telling you better details then I am but I thought I would give it a shot.

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:17 pm

The beagle is a "moderately" angled breed. I see a lot of variation on this when I look at classes of dogs at shows. I think Balance is probably more important than exact angles. If the front don't match the rear then the dog is going to have a lot of unnecessary movement. Too much angle causes dogs to use too much energy and too little causes a dog to work twice as hard to cover ground. Not only are the skeletal angles important but, you have to factor in muscles and tendons. An over muscled heavy dog is going to be slow and sluggish. I guess for me its all about balance front and rear although I will admit I probably like a few more angles than some ;-) I come from sporting breeds so, I like smooth sidegait and lots of reach.

Leah

TC · Post by TC » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:08 pm

Windkist wrote:Not only are the skeletal angles important but, you have to factor in muscles and tendons. An over muscled heavy dog is going to be slow and sluggish. I guess for me its all about balance front and rear

Thank you Leah,
That was what I was trying to identify was the skelital, I had forgot about the muscle contributions. I hole heartedly agree with you on the muscle issue, seen it myself with one of ours. She has a hard time keeping up I agree she expends more energy working those muscles to get the same distance as the others do with less bulk. It is like a body builder that has gone over board.

I have to agree the balance is a great point to make! I think that many times that the overall balance is overlooked because of one minor fault that some perceive as a major issue.

I too love to watch the side motion, love a dog that looks like they move totally effortlessly, kind of like they are ice skaters (my discription as to a smooth mover). Just glide no jigging when they move.

Leah since you braught up the muscle issue, can you describe to us about how they should look or feel to the hand when you are examining the dogs? Do you have a diagram that can be studied? I have an eye for the skelital, however I like to feel with my hand I find I see better with my hands when touching the dog. What are the main contributing muscles that you find cause more problems in the conformation of the dog, and what are the issues you find they have contributed to? And can you identify these dogs when they are pups or is this something that only you will be able to identify once the dog matures or is close to maturity? Sorry for all the questions but this is a very good topic.

wvbill · Post by **wvbill** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:11 am

TC,

Good question, Wont get into that now. I have my opinion of that and muscle tone. As far as a beagle stepping in its front imprints is to much. Granted that would be incredible but that is to far. I might be wrong here. The wife told me I was earlier. LOL

So what I am gathering from You two (TC and Leah) is you feel the same as me and that angles you believe they are more defined on the ground than being stacked. Can dogs with inappropriate angles actually hide them? I believe on the bench they can be due to handler. Free stacked (hate that word)a little but gaiting almost impossible. Agree?

Do you think it is better to have to much or too little angle? This might be a real bad question. I believe it is based on the hound and actually how big or small it appears. My opinion is A dog/bitch that has more angle will do better than one that is lacking. Is the to be true in the AKC?

thornie · Post by **thornie** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:34 am

Hey Bill since you had to bring me into this, I will tell you I know nothing about angles. But if you get the chance just take a little time and maybe Dan M. could set you straight.

wvbill · Post by **wvbill** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:06 am

Thornie,

I still owe you from grabbing me at the McVay hunt and making me jump. Now when I get ahold of you I am really going to let you have it.

You are spending alot of time on the computer. Do you need some hounds to run. If so, I got a few I will send over. I havent seen Roy on much he must be getting his ready.

Bill

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:49 pm

Leah since you braught up the muscle issue, can you describe to us about how they should look or feel to the hand when you are examining the dogs? Do you have a diagram that can be studied?

When I touch a beagle I like to feel hard muscle. Not soft squishy (been in a crate too much) flab. I don't usually see over muscled dogs but, have noticed a few especially in the rear muscling where they almost look whippet like. Good muscle tone shouldn't be confused with too much muscle. Some beagles seem to have it naturally. I know most of my Just-wright stuff can lay in the kennel like slugs and still feel hard. There is nothing like good running for exercise. turning,stopping etc rather than some of these dogs who are run on a treadmill or biked.

Leah

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:07 pm

So what I am gathering from You two (TC and Leah) is you feel the same as me and that angles you believe they are more defined on the ground than being stacked. Can dogs with inappropriate angles actually hide them? I believe on the bench they can be due to handler. Free stacked (hate that word)a little but gaiting almost impossible. Agree?

Do you think it is better to have to much or too little angle? This might be a real bad question. I believe it is based on the hound and actually how big or small it appears. My opinion is A dog/bitch that has more angle will do better than one that is lacking. Is the to be true in the AKC?

A good handler can manipulate most dogs into whatever they want on the ground (hand stack) You sure as heck can't hide much when moving a dog or watching it on its own. Thats when "Balance" comes into play. when I evaluate puppies I don't stack them on a table and pick apart pieces. I watch them in the yard or a run on cement and see how they use themselves. Most of my knuckleheaded dogs are really difficult to ground stack but, they look great on their own standing so, thats usually what I let them do.

Again on the less vs more angles. The front and rear have to match. a straight front with an over angled rear is going to give you a dog that crabs because the rear tries to overtake the front. Not balanced!!

Leah

wvbill · Post by **wvbill** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:05 pm

Leah,

Thanks for your thoughts, Still want to hear Cindy chime in.

It is funny. But I watch my pups the most when they have that favorite toy in their mouth prancing around the house with that look at me/dont even think of taking it attitude.

NOW this where the muscle comes in TC.........

Do you find that some hounds develope faster in the front or the rear or vise versa. Or do the develop the same. We have to assume that the structure is there. (Skelatal "missp")I have seen it where the appear to be nice when they are real young then turn "Crabby". Then as teenagers they straighten out again.

I have a philosphy that is different than most for muscles. I take my hounds down to a lean mean machine. The wife gets on me when I am working with the young hounds. I like seeing rib not just the last one. I work them to define/develop their muscle to support them at their leanest state then once I feel good about them. I start adding the weight gradually. I feel that is when I can gauge them to look their best, it is easier this way instead of trying to take weight off and working with muscle at the same time. Once I start adding the weight their muscles will still develop a little more and it is not as big a battle. Basic Toning not development.

Bill

thornie · Post by **thornie** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:52 pm

Well Bill since I'm 2 up on you, I might just go double or nothing. If the Mrs. would use some of your philosphy of getting a dog in shape, you wolud be slim and trim like me. I like Leah's therory better man-nipulating.

wvbill · Post by **wvbill** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:04 pm

OKAY, up FOUR.

You better quit while you are a head.

Just remember I can loose weight. Looks you are stuck with. " I gotta admit the last photo I seen of you all dressed up I have to commend your plastic surgeon."

Van-Mar Beagles · Post by **Van-Mar Beagles** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:47 pm

Though I am still fairly new to the breed, I do agree with Leah about matching angles. I have had many discussions on this topic with fellow breeders and friends and feel it is of high importance.

Like Leah siad the dog must be balanced. A dog can be underangled, yet still be balanced. Balance is the first thing I look for. If the dog is overangled in the rear (like a lot tend to be nowadays) and his front is right or underangled, the dog will not match up correctly and he will not move right. Since this is a working hound we are talking about, proper movement is of utmost importance.

Angles can't always be seen through eyes so feeling them is neccessary in order to confirm right or wrong. In my personal preferance I like to see an overangled dog rather an underangled dog. Neither is correct, but if I were to choose one, over would be it. I find that all too often these days, especially with this breed, we have far too many underangled dogs. In a dog I like to be able to actually almost see the bones and angles when standing and moving. Short upper arms is one thing I cannot get over and will not accept. This is different from a straight shoulder, but can give the same appearance sometimes. In the rear I like to see long muscles and plenty of angle. I think having a longer stifle on a dog contributes to better rear drive and kick if I must.

Proper muscle can of course affect the appearance of an angle so proper roadwork is nessesary.

Thanks for letting me share

mooredog · Post by **mooredog** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:56 pm

mooredog · Post by **mooredog** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:00 pm

Van-mar beagles wrote,

"Though I am still fairly new to the breed, I do agree with Leah about matching angles. I have had many discussions on this topic with fellow breeders and friends and feel it is of high importance".

agreeing with Leah is always a good start ! Welcome to the board !
" Love those Windkist Beagles"