One of our girls

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:42 am

One of our girls did OK at the Nationals yesterday

Corinne took Winners Bitch with "Seventhson"s I've Got A Secret" from bred-by class, and "Wisper's" littermate won open class and reserve winners.

One of the nicest Beagles of all time took it all from "veterans Class"
12 year old BIS BISS CH Shaws Spirit Of The Chase went BIS

Here are the results
http://www.danterbeagles.com/pabcregular15.htm

Post by **Bev** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:55 am

Blunder, I was hoping someone would post this. I saw on ShowBeagleL where Chase won BOV. A few of our members here have Chase in their hunting hounds as well as their show hounds. Jim Bucsot and I started his 4-year-old show champ on rabbit who had Chase in the pedigree. He started like any other pup would, had a beautiful loud clarion chop mouth, and hunted like a fool.

Congrats on your bitch, and feel free to post pics!

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:42 am

Congrats on your bitch, and feel free to post pics!

Ok

Seventhsun's I've Got A Secret

We also have a Chase grandaughter that is a hunting fool
http://www.sweetbreezbeagles.com/clover.html

tom

TC · Post by TC » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:36 am

Congrats
great job!!
here is another huntin little Fool that has has Chase Top and Bottom!!!!

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:06 pm

Congrats to all. Nice placements.
Chase was Best of Breed at the PABC (Phoenix Area Beagle Club), the other placements were also for Phoenix.

Judging of the regular classes etc. for The National Beagle Club Speciaity do not start until Thur Nov 10.

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:20 am

It is always interesting when a veteran walks off with one of the major awards at a speciality show. (Major awards would be Best of Variety, Best of Opposite Sex, Best of Breed or Awards of Merit).

A person viewing such results might wonder how an old veteran can win over some 260 plus enteries and what might be a logical conclusion to reach after viewing said results.

There a couple scenarios:
Scenario Number ONE:
Assumption: Judge is very qualified and very competent and actually Awarded Best of Breed to the very best hound entered.

Conclusion: Most show breeders/owners etc. are pretty incompetent, since they have been unable to improve, select, or breed a beagle in the last 12 years that has conformation equal to or better than a 12 year old Veteren that one could logically assume was past his prime.

Scenario Number TWO:
Assumption: Show breeders of beagles for the most part have actually done a pretty good job of making some improvements in there hounds or at least have been able to breed a beagle that seems to be more acceptable to more AKC judges over the last 12 years. (An example to support this would be what appears to be a higher number of Group and/or Best in Show Awards garnered at some of the larger AKC All-Beed Shows during that period of time.)

Conclusion: (A) The judge is actually pretty incompetent when it comes to judging beagles, so rather than making an award that might look totally foolish took the easy way out and gave the top prize to a "great" of the past that many in the fancy would find acceptable, especailly if the hound was in thier pedigrees. (He is in a bunch of them as he has been widely used and an obvious observation might be that he should not have been used so much because based on the results he has been unable to pass on/or improve upon himself, even as a 12 year old. Some might well conclude that he has not passed on his top qualities to his offspring and is not the most prepotent of stud dogs or possibly it has been a less than stellar bunch of bitches he was bred to.)

(B) Judge is competent but made award based not on any "Beagle Standards" most would be aware of and probably based on several factors, criteria, opinions etc. that have nothing to do with the AKC Beagle Breed Standard. Possible explanation, judge may have actually been judging who was on the lead rather than the hounds and award given was actually more of a reward to breeder/owner for thier long participation, support of the show sport, etc. than any super attributes of the hound in question. It does happen.

There could be other scenerios, such as he was actually the best of a bad bunch, but that is a tough one to swallow, especially considering that there were some 260 or so enteries and virtually all would have been younger and I would assume at least some would be in better show condition etc. than a 12 year old veteran.

The AKC showring never fails to amaze and amuse. How serious so many take it and in fact it has far more to do with "playing a game and how well you play" versus any selection of conformation excellence that has contributed to any "overall" betterment of the breed, its function, or purpose.

TC · Post by TC » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:26 pm

The AKC showring never fails to amaze and amuse. How serious so many take it and in fact it has far more to do with "playing a game and how well you play" versus any selection of conformation excellence that has contributed to any "overall" betterment of the breed, its function, or purpose.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:27 pm

Conclusion: Most show breeders/owners etc. are pretty incompetent, since they have been unable to improve, select, or breed a beagle in the last 12 years that has conformation equal to or better than a 12 year old Veteren that one could logically assume was past his prime
( Some might well conclude that he has not passed on his top qualities to his offspring and is not the most prepotent of stud dogs

Well, I think we can negate that one.

CH Kahootz Chase Manhatton

Ben has made his mark in beagle history, both in the ring and as a producer of top dogs. Beagle of the year in 97,98 and 99, Ben´s career record includes 341 BOVs, 132 Group Ones, 8 BISS and 29 All breed BIS making hime the top winning beagle dog in US history.

Chase winning could have been nothing more than nestalga,,, who knows without asking the judge.

Being that the judge gave us a major,,, I think the judging was OUTSTANDING

tom

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:49 pm

( Some might well conclude that he has not passed on his top qualities to his offspring and is not the most prepotent of stud dogs

Well, I think we can negate that one.

CH Kahootz Chase Manhatton
Quote:
Ben has made his mark in beagle history, both in the ring and as a producer of top dogs. Beagle of the year in 97,98 and 99, Ben´s career record includes 341 BOVs, 132 Group Ones, 8 BISS and 29 All breed BIS making hime the top winning beagle dog in US history.

Ben, Chase Manhattan was certainly well handled, managed etc. and had resources behind him that all of us could envy. (My estimate, at least 50 thousand plus per year.) I saw him many times, and showed against him both before and after he finished his Ch. and the interest in him was bought by his current owners. While he had a remarkable record I also know of at least one litter he sired when bred to a field bred bitch that though the breeder kept until well over 6 months old and tried to start them on rabbits, eventually gave it up and offered the pups with papers free to anyone that would come and get them. (By the way to clarify a bit, while I can admire his owners/handlers etc. for what they accomplished and the hounds incredible record, all should recognize that they know the "game" very well and also how "to play" to reach thier goals. That is OK. I do not have any problem with that. However, I am not a fan of Ben's. He was/is far to short and blocky, lacked neck, over done head, too deep bodied, over boned and was not up on leg, lacked enough air under him to suit my taste and observation of the kind of conformation needed for long endurance and run to catch speed and drive.) My opinion only.

Congrats on the major. It is a very nice win indeed. Just wondering if you would have thought as highly of the judge if you had not won??? or if the outcome for the judging at the Nationals is different, will that mean the judge there is bad. One bad, one good, both actually good, both bad!!!, but results that may differ, not only from day to to day but even under the same judges at a different event. It does amaze. (With hold ribbons one day, win a major under same a couple months later. or try withheld ribbon one day and win with same dog 4 point major the next (different judge obviously) over the exact same entry. Or........ on and on. The AKC ring still amazes and amuses me.

While most judges will have thier assignments already set for the next several months, it would be interesting to see if in the years ahead this judge is again selected for a speciality or for that matter if thier bookings as a beagle judge remain fairly consistent with the past. In some cases, while the fancy applauds at ringside the disapproval or approval of picking the veteran (I would have loved to had hidden mikes in hotel/motel rooms, over dinner, grooming area, or monitored phone calls etc.) thier real approval/disapproval may well be reflected by how often this judge gets assignments in the future. In some cases, actions/awards/methodolgy etc. at a very big show or speciality can virtually doom or make a judges career with the fancy in a breed. I have no idea how it will go, but we might look to the past, such as previous instances of veterans picking up various Bests at a speciality or possibly feedback regarding a judges method etc. as a guide. I have never made an actual count or anything like that, but do have a certain intuitive feel for the way the wind my blow or has blown in some instances. (My current partners and former partner both served for many years on judge selection committees for thier all-breed clubs, just as do many in the beagle show fancy today. Thier future choices/selection plus the size of entry a judge draws in the future will actually be the final judgement of what a judge has done in the past.)

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:41 pm

I also know of at least one litter he sired when bred to a field bred bitch that though the breeder kept until well over 6 months old and tried to start them on rabbits, eventually gave it up and offered the pups with papers free to anyone that would come and get them.

Here is one of Ben's pups that is a rabbit hunting fool (she is my pac leader)
http://www.sweetbreezbeagles.com/clover.html

There is no doubt that not every mating will click even with the best of dogs. I do agree however that it is always interesting to watch judging assignments after a large show. I personnaly have had wins under judges that I have no respect for, as well as losses under judges that I respect.
I belive there were something like 48 bitches entered in 15 inch at PABC, and of those 48 there were probably a dozen worthy of the win. The fact that this particuler judge picked littermates as winner and reserve simply means that they liked a particular "type" (IMHO of course). The judge at BNC may well like something completlly different, and there is nothing wrong with that. This doesn't make either one a good or bad judge.

Infact I have always been of the opinion that if the same dog wins on both days of a large show,,,,, the judges compaired notes.
tom

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:35 pm

All we managed at BNC today was a second in open bitches
with this dog
Copper Rose Looney Tunes(Poo)

The judge seemed to like bigger boned dogs for the most part
"Parker" took BOV
"Chase" got an AOM

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:01 am

Good ol' Skip sure shocked the beagle show world by putting Parker up for Best of Variety. Boy, I 'll bet everyone was just giddy with the suprise of it at ringside. And another huge breakthrough, he picks a half sister of Parker's for Best of Opposite. He did a fine job of getting a very nice country wide geographical distribution of his Awards of Merit. Should keep most happy fo a bit any way. Now the long wait to see what shocks and wonders the 13 inch judging wil produce. Anybody got a current list of the top 10 13's for the year. Who is closest to the top of the list and entered at the National? Do we actually even have to take them to the ring? Or, or, would he dare break with form and actually, just maybe try to find the best hound rather than the one best campaigned. The tension mounts. Tune in tomorrow for the spellbinding conclusion and the crowning of the prototype for the next generation of Generic American Show Beagles. Legal disclamier: (Any relation to or appearance of any hound at this event resembling a hound described by the standard that might actually have the conformation necessary to last in a 14 mile chase lasting a bit over 1 and a half hours and bring down 2 European hare during the course of such a run is purely an accident and certainly not the intention of anyone breeding for purposes of entry at this event.) The Management.

TC · Post by TC » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:16 am

Legal disclamier: (Any relation to or appearance of any hound at this event resembling a hound described by the standard that might actually have the conformation necessary to last in a 14 mile chase lasting a bit over 1 and a half hours and bring down 2 European hare during the course of such a run is purely an accident and certainly not the intention of anyone breeding for purposes of entry at this event.) The Management.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:23 am

TWO HARE!!! I saw one, but mind you, there were 9 1/2 couple of bitch hounds after her... Fly they could !!! darn little foxhounds they were...

If I could have gotten my hands on that front group of 6 or 7 bitches, you could leave the rest of them and your gun at home.

ooops, forgot where I was at...water/oil

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:36 pm

Patch,
Saw you were back by a couple posts over at Liam's. Hope the storms were not the cause? The very brief descrip of the 2 hare run came from a Hounds (UK) mag hunt report from about 1994 or so. The pack was not very far from where you visited. Warwickshire. Daff's sire may have been a part of that run or I'm sure some of his offspring were. There were 8 couple of studbook dog hounds in the pack. Daff's sire, when she was bred here, was 15 or under since the pack in US he was at keeps nothing bigger.

Have a copy of a hunt report from 1806 describing a 15 mile chase by beagles and accountng for a hare. Same function same hound, just 190 years or so apart.