Show dog VS field dog conformation

[Larry G]

Ok Zuk, you wanted to know the answer, you got it yet? No?...

Well, that is the answer to end all.
I guess I'll keep running my flat head, long toe, wire tailed, slick coat bunch of culls of the show ring.
Just think I was going to take trip up to Fresno, Ohio next month to run with some breeding prospects that are bred for conformation and performance.

I might just let my neighbor's bottle head, long haired, turbo bred male pop her. That dog can drive a rabbit as good as any I have seen and has a ton of hunt. It really wasn't the direction I wanted to go, but since show vs. field conformation doesn't mix I'll quit now.

Might just breed her to a fiest or something.

If you think you are going to get all that ability the ugly dog has plus good looks by breeding to somebody's dog that is bred for conformation and performance, take the ugly dog with you and put him down in the field with what is supposed to have both, then decide. It's kind of like wanting to marry Pamela Anderson and hoping she will be a good cook, and happy to stay home and keep house for you, and just forget about all that fast life nonsense.

[Moore Beagles]

Just think I was going to take trip up to Fresno, Ohio next month to run with some breeding prospects that are bred for conformation and performance.

Zuk if you are heading to Dave & Don's your time will be well spent! You will be pleasantly surprised, and you won't be trying to reinvent the wheel, they have several breedings past the the typical Show/Hunt cross. Sundown's has a dog to suit anybodies liking! Bring your checkbook, because you'll be sorry if you don't. Let me know when your going, I might runup there and meet you. My problem is I get in trouble with my wife everytime I go YOU bought another beagle
Also I also wanted to add that Show dogs like Uno are conditioned to look good, but they are not ran like our hunting dogs, and they would look much lighter if they were ran in the field for a couple weeks. I would like to see a picture of Fire River Michael when he was just showing, and not hunting. My guess is he would look alot thicker than his famous bio picture.

[SilverZuk]

If you think you are going to get all that ability the ugly dog has plus good looks by breeding to somebody's dog that is bred for conformation and performance, take the ugly dog with you and put him down in the field with what is supposed to have both, then decide.

[Well, I'll hi-jack my own thread]

Larry,
I don't need to take the male for comparison. I know the dog I described inside and out through several years of hunting him every Saturday in season, and trialing him in the off season. He is a very fine dog, but a bit fast and rough for what I want.
My gip is a bit fast and rough, and I feel the offspring of the two might be over the edge.
I am looking for a male that hunts/runs like I want, good conformation, with a bigger nose and run a tighter line than what I have got.

I know exactly what I am looking for in a beagle. I've seen some really nice dogs, but they aren't what I want.
When I see what I want, I will breed to it. Nothing is certain, but hopefully I am a good enough judge of dogs to find what suits me. It may create a bunch of mixed up culls, or it may produce the ideal rabbit dog in my book.

My gip's sire was rough, and he would cut and swing. Those are things an over competitive dogs learns when too much pressure is put on them. He had more hunt than any beagle I had ever seen, he never quit all day long no matter how many, or how few, rabbits we had run. He jumped most of the rabbits compared to the rest of the pack. He covered lots of real estate, and never quit.

I always figured that if I had that male at a young age I could have made a better dog out of him. The guy who raised him threw him in the pack at 6 months old with fast, hard hitting dogs, that were rough themselves. He learned what he had to do to run the front.
I told the owner (not the guy who raised him), "If you ever breed her with a female I like, I want a pup."
He ended up breeding her to a smooth rabbit dog.
The result is my gip. She has a ton of hunt, jumps as many rabbits as the rest of the pack put together but is rough on the line. I kept the pressure off her when she was younger, and she handles the pressure fairly well, though she will cheat some.
I want to breed her to a smooth rabbit dog with excellent conformation. I want to keep the high strung hard hunt that I've got, the good conformation I've got, while adding a little more nose and a better line control. She's not the best in the world, but she suits me well enough to breed.

[SilverZuk]

Zuk if you are heading to Dave & Don's your time will be well spent! You will be pleasantly surprised, and you won't be trying to reinvent the wheel...

I've been reading and hearing about their beagles for the past few years. They seem to be breeding toward the same goal that I have. I am sure they have some really nice beagles, but I need to see them run to see if it is what I am looking for, and also get their opinion on a potential cross. It's a good haul away from the house but I would like to see their dogs work and discuss their breeding program. I feel it is worth the trip after talking with Don on the phone the other night.

[mooredog]

You will not be sorry that you drove all that way to see Dave And Don. Don McVay knows more about breeding top quality field and show hounds than anyone I know. If Don says it will be a great cross go ahead and make it. His dogs are breed to run and look good doing it. Don and Dave will tell you straight up what their dog will do and what they can't do. My only problem is trying not to take them all home!
Go early and stay late , you will enjoy your visit and see some very fine hounds do their work. When Don starts on pedigrees pay attenion I find myself lost early on , just to much information for my little brain. Have fun and enjoy !!!!
Paul

[Bev]

When Don starts on pedigrees pay attenion I find myself lost early on , just to much information for my little brain.

Oh, Oh! I have a picture of that....Don talkin' pedigrees. Worst trouble was, he was talkin' to somebody who liked to talk pedigrees as much as he does, lmao! We were late for the lunch line.

[Larry G]

Good luck, Zuk! Might just be an AKC dual in your future.

[SilverZuk]

Good luck, Zuk! Might just be an AKC dual in your future.

If I knew what an AKC dual was
I have never attended any AKC events.

I am really not after any titles. I like to field trial when it is not rabbit season. I don't have any illusions of me having the next Ky Reggie and Uno all in the same package. I just want good looking rabbit dogs that can do it how I want, all day long.
Ones I can put on the bench anywhere and give the judge something to really think about, and put in most field trial formats and be competitive. I'm wanting the perfect dog, just like everyone else.

[Bev]

Good luck, Zuk! Might just be an AKC dual in your future.

I'm wanting the perfect dog, just like everyone else.

Then I suggest you follow Larry G's prescription of breeding the two most imperfect dogs you can find and creating urself some new perfect dog genes.

[Larry G]

Girl you are about to create that mooning gene in me! But I have a lot of patience with the poor misguided souls of the world (and I don't want to join Danny in the corner with his dunce cap on) so I will just say thanks for your input, along with all the other wisdom on here, such as a dog is either born gunshy or he isn't, you have to breed on the 10th day or it won't work, and you can make your doggie a champ by feeding it Super Duper Brand dog food.

Seriously, great giggles and if your panties (perhaps I really should say unmentionables) are still in a wad and this don't fix it just throw the darn things away.

[Larry G]

Lest the uninitiated think I am merely jesting and certain people (hmmmph) really know what they are talking about, here's a pup that has won some events for me on the bench and in the field. Her Dad wouldn't chase a rabbit if he was starving , her mom can win traditional brace trials by barking all day where one squatted a week ago. Her brother went to a rabbit hunter and he won't even talk about selling that dog. This bitch and her sister were sold to a rabbit hunter in Georgia, same deal... they are at home and the man reports he is "very pleased" and wanted to buy their other sister, but someone beat him to it. Now she ain't no AKC dual but then I got her in 63 days not 40 years. Funny how those darn genes just won't mix.

In closing, let me quote my favorite author, Mark Twain... "We are all ignorant, just on different subjects".

[blunder]

Could someone post a picture of Uno from front to side and show us the different parts that make him conform to the breed standard?

I have been to quite a few trials and seen my share of bench shows.
I rarely see a dog built similarly to Uno. Most running beagles are built much differently.

Right, and if you click this link you will see Scott's brood bitch that is a very good example of the "form follows function" concept..she's built to get the job done.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34189

Came from breeding dogs that got the job done.

That is absolutely true.
Only problem is would you like to see where the theory leads ?

Ain't she a beauty? Perfect specimen of a Labrador, don't ya agree Well she is a titled Master Hunter and a "get the job done" animal.
This is what having seven national titles in the first two generations will get ya.
Here is what is the real bad part that comes from "got the job done" mentality
http://cnmlabrador.vet-alfort.fr/pages/ ... _site.html
Remember me mentioning that Briggs & Honcho had the same grandsire? Every known carrier of CNM can be traced back to the same dog. To bad that Honcho sired more field trial champions than any dog in history, and that it took 30 years for all the pieces to come togeather. As you will see the problem has gone from one dog to world wide.

[SilverZuk]

Larry,
Why did you breed the non-hunting male and the brace female?
What clued you or the breeder in that it would be a good cross?
The way you described them, I wouldn't have owned either one.
The beagle you have in the picture appears very nice as far as pictures go.
What are her faults (both running and conformation)?
Is she a proven reproducer?
I know of 2 beagles that were some of the most winning dogs of their day that were hybrid crosses.
They never reproduced anything worth feeding.

Blunder,
I guess I missed something. The picture doesn't do much either because it is grainy.
You are talking about a genetic mutation traced back to one sire that is causing lots of problems because now most labs have that sire in their pedigree.
How would people have know that 20 years ago?
There are plenty of genetic problems in beagles, and some big ones in heavily line bred bloodlines.
What is the point that I am missing?

[Larry G]

Breeding dogs that get the job done is to blame for CNM? Man you missed your calling. You could have been Bill Clinton's PR guy.

[blunder]

"Blunder,
I guess I missed something. The picture doesn't do much either because it is grainy.
You are talking about a genetic mutation traced back to one sire that is causing lots of problems because now most labs have that sire in their pedigree.
How would people have know that 20 years ago?
There are plenty of genetic problems in beagles, and some big ones in heavily line bred bloodlines.
What is the point that I am missing?"

Doesn't matter that the pic is grainy, it is easy to see that she has the build of a sight hound instead of a Labrador. Both the development of the genetic problems and the changes to the form are the direct result of the changes over time to function and the consistent breeding to "get the job done". Doesn't matter what the job is,if we would quit changing our description of what the job is, this would stop happening to our dogs.
How many different stiles of trials and shows are we trying to make the beagle conform to these days? If we can't decide what the function is, where is the form suppose to go? So we will end up doing the same thing to our Beagles that we have already done to our Labs.

edit;
Larry, if you can't figure out that breeding to the top dog all the time instead of breeding to the proper dog once in a while like you claim to be doing will backfire sooner or later , I don't know what to tell you.
And yes CNM wouldn't be close to being the same problem today if Honcho hadn't produced so many FCs.
Here is you another example;
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=423107#animal
This is only a list of Maxx pups that are OFA certified, who knows what the total number is.
So now what is going to be the result down the road if Maxx proves to be a source of EIC (exercise induced collapse) as is suspected?
We have to get away from this consistent breeding to the stud of the month or we will see a catastrophe like CNM sooner or later. Breeding to the "get it done" dog all the time doesn't work, because "get it done" keeps evolving.