Show dog VS field dog conformation

[Incahoots]

Swinging on checks isn't a hare hound trait, imo.

[Beagle Huntsman]

It doesn't necessarily have to take several generations to get useful hounds from show crosses. I have an all show-bred female who is one of my best. She runs with line control, speed, and searches hard. I'd love to clone her! A heavier voice and more size are the main things I'd change about her, but any hunter would love her.

SOME of the first cross show x field hounds do well, also. Especially if you use show lines known to hunt or produce hunt. We have had excellent results from Echo Run and Daragoj lines in particular. In the old days, Colegrens and Showfield were very good. John New's Field Champion New City Cruiser was sired by a show champion and his dam was 1/4 show.

It all depends on the lines you use. Show cross hounds generally run with more speed, probably a more natural running style for a beagle, since they have none of the brace influence from the last 50-60 years to slow them down. Most UBGF and other field trial hounds of today run at a more conservative pace than you would expect from show lines. Some show hounds are downright too fast and don't know what a check is. Again, it depends on the show lines you use.

I mentioned earlier some of the benefits to using show blood to produce better hounds for hunting. One thing I forgot to mention was the nice coats you generally get from show blood. You seldom see rat tails, thin coats, etc, from hounds with much show blood in them.

[Bev]

Good post. Glad you chimed in. I've seen the New City stuff run and what I've seen doesn't lack in foot or looks. My comments about several generations were meant as an average if you're trying to go in a totally different direction. I think on average it takes several generations to get where you want to be for the long haul, but yes, you can see improvement early on, and if you start with the right stuff it comes more quickly. Sometimes it's just a matter of tweaking - depending on what the person wants and what he/she starts with.

I think the Large Pack community can be excused from the sins of what was done to the breed in the 60's. They are running pretty much the same dog they always have because their trials didn't really change. If anything, they ramped their dogs up as opposed to ramping them down.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Yes, it can take several generations to "set a type" that will reproduce itself consistently. No sense in re-inventing the wheel, when others have done it for you, though. Unless, of course, you can't find anything close to what you are after.

The LPH hounds have definitely "ramped up" from the 60s. The old timers will tell you that. The influence of a certain Canadian kennel and the influx of enclosures has led to the increases in overall speed and drive. The hounds we got from the north in the 70s were nice, but 20 years later the change was evident.

[oakhill]

It's all about homework!!! You need to know what is in that hound's line. If there have not been any hunting dogs for several generations back in that show hound, I would venture to say it might not be as easy to produce the show/ hunting dog. Just my opinion

[Beagled1]

It's all about homework!!! You need to know what is in that hound's line. If there have not been any hunting dogs for several generations back in that show hound, I would venture to say it might not be as easy to produce the show/ hunting dog. Just my opinion

That's very true, we need to look moreso at what the hounds are out of than what they are themsleves, IMHO. I do think, tho, that what they are capable of producing actually stems back much farther than many currently believe. If those genes were there at one point - not just there but predominant, encompassing, than they just don't fade away when proper breeding decisions are made. Definitely is much harder to keep in that instinct when it's not being selectively bred for ... And it's going to be a gamble when breeding show hounds that hunt thelselves, because we don't know what esle may be in the genepool that they're passing on to their offspring. Were they ever bred to a houdn that completely lacked hunt? I think that may be why some show/field crosses are dissapointing. That being said, I have seen strong hunt in show lines, I'm about to do my first half show/field cross soon, and am curious as to what it will produce.

Someone mentioned the Little Ireland breeding from years ago, and the show/field cross that gave us New City Cruiser. I have a bitch that goes back to Cruiser thru her sire, and if you look far enough back, she's got Little Ireland as well, also thru the sire's line. She's not show type herself, but her sire was. I think he could have attained an AKC championship if he was ever shown, and did that hound ever have hunt and throw it in his pups in SPADES I notice that this bitch, even when bred to a mediocre male in regards to conformation, will produce pups that seem to be throwbacks to her sire - meaning we see her throw almost show quality pups when bred to a snippy nosed male - my point is that we'd have to go back 5,6+ generations to see anything out of show breeding, yet those genes are still alive and well several generations later, when conformation was not always selectively bred for in each generation. The show quality throwbacks have as much hunt as anything else she produces, btw.

This pup was out of the afformentioned bitch, and sired by a snippy nosed male Again, we see show breeding so far back, yet there it is, still coming out. So I think the same can still apply to hunt coming out in show breeding, not all the time, but probably more often than we realize ...

[S.R.Patch]

...

[blunder]

"Do you think it is a dog or a bitch? You first said "who she is", then you say, "Do you recognize the "dog" now?"
It may be old Priceless(dog) but I'd have to ask Lynn to be sure"

Quite frankly don't know, built like a dog but don't see any balls.
I suspect that it's a bitch
All I know is that I would give my eye teeth for it either way.
Do you have any idea of how many hours we spend teaching a dog to free stack like that?

[Bev]

This hound used to stand pretty well on his own. Wrong color for the show ring for sure, but it didn't take him long to grand out at the hunt bench shows. Ears were a little high, and the coat was a little slick, but he hunted like a mo-fo. Great gun dog:






This dog is approximately 1/4 show and 3/4 hunt. Hunt and speed weren't lacking. Line control? Meh...he'd sometimes cheat a little to get to the front, lol. Had a sorry mouth, too for a big male, (squealy chop) but he used it correctly.

[Larry G]

Hmm.... must not have had that correct mouth gene thing.

Ok Zuk, you wanted to know the answer, you got it yet? No? Well here it is, pal. To win AKC shows your dog needs to be a little different from a field winner. Part is the eye, ears, head. Show dogs just have that look. But, also the dog would need to have things you don't want in a good field hound... too straight in the pasterns, foot too small and tight, rib cage too well sprung (barrel chested), too much front to rear slope, back too short, muzzle too short, not enough angulation in the back legs, croup too level, tailset too high, in general a hound built to trot not gallop. And since we all now know that genes DO NOT MIX (wowee the things one can learn on this board) you'd be a darn fool to try to put some of the show hound's good qualities in you breeding program, unless you have 40 years to do it.

Now, wizards of woofers, I ran Monday with a guy from SC and his little show bred male hung in well and got his share of the work done. Looks good, too. He has a squeak for a bark but uses it right so must have the correct mouth gene. So, would breed my tight mouth hot nose no trail instinct beautiful full show bitch to him and hope things fall in place? Oooooohh boy!

To quote Dr. Robert Atkins, " an imbalance cannot be corrected by adding balance".

[blunder]

We have a fair share of show champions, so we have seen enough of them to understand what is needed.



With what I have for pics, this is as close to a side by side as I have.
The little 13" bitch is a littermate to Parkers mother (sired by Kahoots Chase Manhattan)

Hard to see a few things with the hound looking strait up, but the only glaring thing I see about the hound is tail and tail set. The hound has enough neck, and the arch in the topline is caused by head position being to high, can't judge the head from the south end, the angeluation is exactly what I would expect from a hound straining forward, so IMHO it would probably title on the bench. The hound actually has more spring to it's ribs than most show dogs, and is defiantly short coupled enough.

[TC]

Here is the Results of a Show x Field Cross this hound is 3/4 show stock and have never had a problem With his Hunt OR his Voice Ask any that have run with him. Gets a little Wide in the Check LOL but can Flat Smoke a rabbit.
He is pointed in the AKC Show ring and has Placements in the field also.......More of a ARHA/UKC style Dog But i like him
AKC/UKC/ARHA BSCH Crewse-N-Lugnut


And here is one of a hound that is 3/4 field x 1/4 show stock.. just starting her Showing but has been placing well.
And i will tell ya this little girl is RABBIT CRAZY no Problem with her voice either or her Running More a ARHA PP or UKC PP style dog Good line Control Still gets a little excited and tends to Over run a bit But KNOWS when she does and will snap right back.
Seems to handle a check well also Will Search it from the inside out...
So YES it can be done.With TIME and the right choices.......

[SilverZuk]

Ok Zuk, you wanted to know the answer, you got it yet? No?...

Well, that is the answer to end all.
I guess I'll keep running my flat head, long toe, wire tailed, slick coat bunch of culls of the show ring.
Just think I was going to take trip up to Fresno, Ohio next month to run with some breeding prospects that are bred for conformation and performance.

I might just let my neighbor's bottle head, long haired, turbo bred male pop her. That dog can drive a rabbit as good as any I have seen and has a ton of hunt. It really wasn't the direction I wanted to go, but since show vs. field conformation doesn't mix I'll quit now.

Might just breed her to a fiest or something.

[Bev]

Larry G:

[Larry G]

I knew you had the gene for it!

It's called the "mooning gene" and probably had something to do with last night's lunar eclipse. See how much great info is free on here!

On 2nd thought maybe your panties WERE in a wad...heheheh