NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

[blunder]

That is "Parker" (15 inch)

Official Westminster photo

[King's Way Kennel]

Leah and Cindy,
Great to see you writing and answering on here for all to read, talk, and enjoy. I do have many questions and a couple opinions.
1. You mention how concerned show breeders are of the field breeders but I can tell you from experience it is about impossible to get a response from any e-mails. I have tried for some time to get some top quality bred show hounds introduced into the line I have now that although is field bred is very close to what I have seen in some show kennels. The response I get is they will not stud out their male or you can only get a pup that is "limited" registered so it can not have pups.
2. I greatly appreciate what you guys are doing and breeding for. But although some very particular people are out here does it mean we think any less of our hounds or would not like to bridge this gap that does exist just because we turn our hounds loose in the wild and not just in a fenced back yard, (which I do have for them).
3. Thank goodness to a man who opened up his kennel and allowed me to bring Ch. Shaw's Spirit of the Chase and some Daragoj hounds into my breeding program. I also have plans to breed back into those same lines but where else can I go and find the same "open mindness".
4.What does it take to use one of your males or purchase a pup.
5. I think from my small observations that there are many more field breeders interested in using the show lines then there are show breeders willing to help some of us particular but yet rabbit hunting guys. What do you feel is the opinion from your friends and associates?
Thanks again a million times and please do not take any of this as negative but trying to find answers and a way to improve my hounds.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

4.What does it take to use one of your males or purchase a pup.


Just fill out my puppy questionnaire! Obviously you have some show lines in your kennel and should have a nice reference from the Shaws? I plan to give a nice break on stud fees to any field kennels that I feel comfortable growing "my" puppies in....

[TC]

4.What does it take to use one of your males or purchase a pup

ASK!!!!!
If they say NO then look Somewhere else there are LOTS of good Show breeders out there they just dont toot thier own horns as much as some do.
Just keep looking around to see what dog would fit your Program then ASK
We went through the same type of Problems for awhile Until we met A real Nice lady that took the time to TALK to us to See what our goals were and where we were plannin on Going with our program (thank You Pat Marlow) Then she Made some recomendations and we followed through (thanks to Gene Applegate) Now we are at the point where we can Do our Own breedings but have one or two that we would like to cross back into the Show lines one more time.
We contacted the breeder and explained to them what our goals are and are setting up Dates for our next breeding.
NOT all Show people are alike SOME are actually Pretty NICE!!!!!!!

LMAO You should be on Our side of the fence!!!!!!
Hunting lines Dont want to breed into Show WILL RUIN THE HUNT!!!!
Show Folks Not wanting to breed into Field You Will ruin thier Conformation Ect you just have to keep trying
In MY PERSONEL OPINION We have come a long way in bridging the Gap!!!!

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I agree with TC. I have a couple of irons in the fire with some field beaglers that I trust. And when my Parker son comes home from Florida he will be available at a reduced rate to field stock if anyone is interested. My requirements to use him are no different for a field beagler than they are for a show beagler. My rate is only reduced a little for you'all because I know you can't turn around and sell the pups for a $800 + each like most of us show beaglers can.

Basically I don't want my puppies living outdoors chained to a kennel year round but I also don't want them living their lives stacked in some crate in a dog room. I am picky but reasonable I think!

[Windkist]

I happen to agree with most of what Cindy said. I have nothing against working with field beaglers and had any of them asked me I'm sure we could work something out. I think maybe one has asked but, hasn't been ready yet to do a breeding. I like cindy do not care to have my dogs chained to a barrel or dog house or left to whelp out in a dog house with no extras like one person told me he does his bitches. So, yes I'll ask you the same questions I ask anyone inquiring to use my dogs but, I won't turn you down because your hobby is something other than mine. I prefer to work with those who have a goal in mind which most of us do. A few quick questions and I usually know if I'm talking to someone I want to work with.

Leah Bertagnolli

[King's Way Kennel]

Cindy, Leah, or TC (by the way that is a beautiful male in your picture), could any of you PM. me about your stud fees or people in the Ky. area that you think would be a help to me and would have some good advise. That way they could maybe look at my hounds and give you opinions of where I am and what I need to do next on breedings and puppies. That way your price and information would not be listed publicly if you did not want it to be. Thank you for what you have already done even if you wish not to reply just your openness has been a pleasure.

[TOUCHSTONE]

It seems that the hunting beagle enthusiasts will have the greatest input on developing the total dog... correct in both form and function. Many bloodlines have excellent hunting instincts. Many are realizing the only way to improve them is to equip them with excellent running gear/conformation to get the job done. It is always interesting to watch the sporting group at Westminster and note the many great show dogs that have hunt titles. None are mentioned in the hound group. I believe those who claim to love the breed have an obligation to see it reach its full potential. The folks involved in show dogs are very educated in structure and genetics. While some will simply roll their eyes and dismiss us, I am hopefull that others will make a contribution to the effort. Many hunt people want to develop knowledge that will make their dogs better. Many are thinking total dog and gaining knowledge to get there. Many of us hunt guys take excellent care of our dogs. Beau is home sleeping on the couch ( I hope! LOL) after a good 2hr run in the snow today. I also agree it is important to place pups in favorable situations. Every breeder should screen buyers. You will find that some of us keep our dogs in great condition.

[Lefgren-Lane]

Touchstone and others,
There's a lot of babbling in the check area, or ghost trailing and by my judging I'd say many are actually pretty clueless about where the line is and at the moment there appears little chance it will be recovered and then claim it in the manner necessary that would allow others to honor and follow the lead.

It is always interesting to watch the sporting group at Westminster and note the many great show dogs that have hunt titles. None are mentioned in the hound group. I believe those who claim to love the breed have an obligation to see it reach its full potential. The folks involved in show dogs are very educated in structure and genetics. While some will simply roll their eyes and dismiss us, I am hopefull

Sporting Group "how many have hunt titles" You got to be kidding. Junior Hunter titles. Have you ever read the requirements for titles like that? There was not a Best of Breed or Reserve anywhere that had anything even close to a FC and do not remember seeing any of them that had a JH. Thank all the powers above that the scent hounds do not have these kinds of goofy titles to go after.

As far as "folks involved in show dogs being very educated in structure" I'll agree with that. They really know thier stuff when it comes to building a dog that will function as a "flashy, crowd pleasing show ring trotter". Take a look at the Breed Winners at Westminister. Cut the hair off of them, dye them all one color, chop off thier head and tail and you could not tell one breed from another. NOTICE: They all have straight toplines sloping from just behind the withers to an often too "high" tailset, all have short upper arms, short VERTICAL front pasterns, they are extremely overangulated in the rear (some of them to the point of deformity. EX Take a look at the Irish Setter, http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/20 ... ndex2.html

NOW THAT LOOKS REAL FUNCTIONAL. Bound to be of great use in the field!!!!!.),
the length of most from point of shoulder to buttocks is normally over 110 to 120 percent of thier height at the withers, the ratio of body depth in relation to length of leg below the chest is about equal to or less than 1.00. Many are .9 0r .8. These are all characterisitics of "trotters'. The over angulation also makes them inefficient as trotters but they are "flashy". (Why anyone would need a Fox Terrier or most of the rest of them, with feet planted 3 inches back of its but is beyond me. Working terriers are not built that way.) If you examine the function of many of these breeds you will find that many were supposed to be built as and perform as gallopers. Gallopers are not always good trotters. In fact many of the long legged gallopers will switch pretty freely between a "pace' and a "trot' (EX. Great Danes, Salukis, Afghans, etc.) Functional gallopers will also have body length/height ratios of approximately 100 to 110 percent. The amount of leg below the lowest point of the chest will be 1 to 1.3 times the body depth at the withers. They also will have short back, an arch over the loin and fairly long crops with about a 30 degree pelvic angle and the tail set will usually be moderate or even low. Pointers, Setters, Foxhounds, Dobermans, Blk-Tan Coonhounds, Beagles, Siberian Huskies, Scottish Deerhound (YUK on the winner of the hound Group. Scots Deerhound. It is a "trotter") etc. etc. are all supposed to be good gallopers. Yet when we look at examples from the showring they are all built like "trotters". NO small wonder that so many breeds are virtually split between "show" and "field". In the show ring the judges keep putting up "flashy" trotters and the folks keep bringing 'em more of the same. It ain't goin' a change but for goodness sake DO NOT get confused by an AKC Show title or a big pile of wins, ribbons etc. and assume that these kind of dogs actually represent anykind of conformation excellence for performing the functions these breeds were bred for. Ever see a coyote, wolf, jackal etc. that is built like a "generic American show dog"? Don't bother looking, mother nature expects her creatures to function and survive and in a few hunderd thousand years or so she has never managed to create over angulated, straight topline, vertical short front pasterned trotters. It has taken man to do that. Go back and look at the Afghan winner, now take a look at REAL Afghans bred to hunt.
http://www.afghanhoundsoz.com.au/Afghan_Gait.htm

A square and leggy bunch for sure, built light and fast, and carrying nothing of excess to inhibit thier speed as "up hill or rough country gallopers". Their rumps and pelvis angles reflect thier very purpose. (Take a look at a Mountain Goat, or Sheep. What does thier rump and pelvis angle look like? They are the king of the up-hill gallopers.)

Try to find the functioning field versions of many of these breeds and compare them to the show ring examples. The differences are pretty extreme. Ever see a Saluki pace in the show ring? How about an Am Foxhound? Many of the breed do it quite often. The good field versions of these breeds do that because they have the body/length proportion of gallopers. The long legs and short body means they will at times "pace" to avoid the interference of the rear feet and fronts because of their build. These breeds when built to function are most comfortable doing, jogs, lopes, canters, gallops or walks instead of "trotting" or "flying trots".

There is so so much more. Go watch hounds run, and then watch them run some more. All day, and all night. Which ones last, measure them, how are they built, what kind of angulation do they have, What kind of feet. pasterns, etc. etc.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I will say that I wish something about correct movement was mentioned in the American Beagle Standard. I am a strong believer in good movement in all breeding hounds and I have been in plenty of debates over the subject where the other party harped on the fact that movement is not mentioned in the standard.
The way I see it, when the standard reads "to last in the hunt all day and chase it's quarry to it's death" that refers to movement and soundness and could not be more obvious...but there are those judges that need everything spelled out for them I guess...if you leave them any wiggle room they will put up their friends or Mr. Big Wig with the hound that can't get out of his own way and try to excuse it by claiming "He has type."

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Just to clarify since this started out as Parkers thread...HE MOVES BEAUTIFULLY and no-one can deny that. I'd also like to show off my Parker son "Brady" moving at 9.5 months below..

[TOUCHSTONE]

Lefgren-Lane, I disagree with most of your post. Parker has the structure and movement that would serve a hunting beagle well. Dan M

[Lefgren-Lane]

Touchstone

Lefgren-Lane, I disagree with most of your post. Parker has the structure and movement that would serve a hunting beagle well. DanM

I agree, would probably work to shoot cottontails in front of.

It seems my original post failed to register. Let's try some pics of real beagles. The ones that were created, selected, and bred to fullfill the function of running down and killing a hare.

Here are pics from a hound show in UK. Believe it was peterborough, (the oldest, 1877, most highly regarded show of its kind) in 1990's. The hounds are judged by 3 judges that will normally have over 20 years (often it is 40 plus) experience as huntsmen and/or masters of hound packs. 2 judges make the selections, the 3rd resolves any conflicts in placements if the first 2 do not agree.

Bitch Ch


Dog Ch


Pup Ch at a pack puppy show (est about a year old)


To show the consistency, how about a detail from an 1840's painting


These images should be burned into the brain of anyone that even considers breeding or judging beagles. These are the BREED and every beagle on the planet is a descendent of the hounds in these packs. If our hounds do not look like and function like the original then it is our failure, not thiers. Take a real good look at how they are built, the proportions, the leg to height ratios, the arch over the loins, length of crop etc. etc. These are NOT show ring trotters. They are miniature Foxhounds, GALLOPERS.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I know what you are talking about Dan. I definitely think there is a tendency in America to put the cutest, boxiest, flashy little Beagle up over the miniature foxhound type. Absolutely.

Often it looks to me like what you need to win with a lot of judges is
*okay movement
*a square head and big bulging eyes
*a big white muzzle
* and a familiar pro on the top of the lead
*some flash

Got all of that and you are good to go.

I suppose the type of Beagle would also depend on the type of Rabbit it is supposed to hunt? Should 15's have more leg and length in porportion to their size since aren't they theoretically bred to chase snowshoe hare and the larger bunnies? I know many of us sigh in disgust when an overgrown 13" with no leg, shoulder or loin takes the Breed in 15's...or when an overgrown 13" with no bone and a high, cutsey earset does...those are just examples of two specials out there now that as a judge I would not put up in 15's.

[blunder]

So are you advocating 16 inch Beagles like those in the painting???? (that is the standard over there)
The major structure change that I have noticed over the years is that Beagles today are far heavier boned (esp in 15 inch)

*a big white muzzle

Haint that the truth,, like it makes so much difference in a dogs ability to perform

tom