how to pick the best bench dog.

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:41 pm

It's a good topic and a good discussion, lots of nice folks on here with experience. My own thinking is along the lines of that of Bob Wehle, author of "Wing and Shot" and other dog books. I think it would be informative for those interested to read his chapter on conformation. The book is in most city libraries. Here is an excerpt, taken from PP150-151.

"There seems to be a question as to the correctness of the standards used by bench dog breeders. The dogs that have resulted from following these standards over the years do not appear to have the physical make-up to perform well in the field. (skip down a few lines, same paragraph)
Faulty conformation factors,combined with a complete disregard for hunting instinct, have resulted in a strain of dogs that are not well-fitted for field work."

Now, on p. 152, the other side of the coin.

"By the same token, many breeders of field dogs have gone too far in the other direction.They have concentrated their breeding objectives on certain qualities and disregarded others, such as appearance, almost completely. While most of the field bred dogs are physically equipped to peform,as far as speed, grace and endurance are concerned, they do not follow any conformation standard. (skip a few lines) They definitely lack general appearance qualities."

This was written a good may years ago but I think it still fits the situation.

Now this is my writing, not his:

I think the UGBF is trying to change that trend by giving awards in both field and bench competition and I don't know too much about ARHA but I think they are doing the same. If all goes well I plan on attending one of their trials soon and see what kind of dog they are promoting. Lastly my intent here is not to offend, insult or demean anyone or their dogs and breeding program. There is room for all kinds of fanciers, and no one right way to participate in this hobby or business that I know of.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:14 pm

imho, Lefgren Lane are two of the best when it comes to structure for performance.
What makes them so good is, they have gone round with the showdog circuit, BUT ALSO, have much experience with the field hounds, seeing first handed what succeeds in long hours afield. Hounds that must give their all, for not only an hour or two, but the day as a whole and then, return again for the next days cut. These hounds by necessity, possess the all-important requirement of heart, desire and determination, along with the testing for hunt-instinct, nose, patients and levelheadedness, none of which is measured on a bench...

The correct measurement of structure to accomplish, is best taken in "the field", where hours and days of exulted purpose, added upon eachother show the type of conformation freedom of movement gives to those who rarely tire and last the longest ...only from the winners of these, can the cosmetic selection of "the prettiest hound" do no harm...

... again, jmho...

TOUCHSTONEBGLS · Post by **TOUCHSTONEBGLS** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:25 pm

Many excellent posts. I definitely feel certain that it will be the field breeders that gain knowledge of proper structure and evaluate dogs as they perform in the field who will develop the highest quality rabbit dogs.

buckridge · Post by **buckridge** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:01 pm

I have some show beagles that can out run and out stay most any field beagle alive. due to correct conformation and conditioning. They are by no means trotters, they can flat out run. I put them in my enclosure and work with them all day long. I know this for a fact.
The trouble I have is they are not good hunters, because for the most part it has been bred out of them.
I have crossed show to field and had some success, but nothing close to becoming a dual AKC show and field champion.
Not given up yet....

Jim

TOUCHSTONEBGLS · Post by **TOUCHSTONEBGLS** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:51 pm

The AKC champions could also flat out pound a track all day. Not enough mouth. What Show lines did you use and why? I bred my White River male to a Briarhill female and got some nice pups. Good search and jump on 2, excellent on one and marginal on the 4th(also the one with the least amount of field time). Speed is on the fast side but they shut down when they get off the line and back to the point of the loss. One started(barked its first bark) on a deer track but have not had the others go on deer yet. Now 13 mo old and still not sure which 2 to keep. If anyone else has bred into show lines what were your results? Why did you select the lines? Any other info that we can share would help the process.

TC · Post by TC » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:45 pm

Research and more research!!!! do your homework!!!!!
Some folks Will get LUCKY in 2 or 3 breedings lets see what thier lines look like 5 breedings down the road AND how many out of each litter turn out to be What your looking For???
We have been breeding Field and Show crosses for years now and every Dog i have in my kennel Can run its own Rabbit and are doing well placing in Shows NOW
you can View our hounds at
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/
in the last few years we have seen the show and field beaglers comming together like we have not before! Just a couple years back you should have seen some of the post about Mixing hunting Stock with Show stock you would have thought we were commiting the Ultimate sin LOL...
I feel honesetly that over the next few years you will see more and more of these true BEAGLEs comming into thier own...
It wont be from a lack of trying!!!
The biggerst mistake i have seen to date is Folks just Throwin Show Stock and field Stock together hoping for that right Cross Some might get lucky Most wont!!!!
Like i said do your research Look at the Dogs pedigree but most of all LOOK AT THE DOGS i mean really look at them Dont get kennel Blind you have to perfectly honest With yourself Look at the Dogs FAULTS thay all have em!!!!
Now WHAT do I need to improve this area What does this Dog have to offer More importantly WHAT does this LINE have to offer how far back do they go before you run into faults that you just cannot live with...how many from this breeding or that truely had what your looking for?
Then be realistic with yourself most are not gonna get what they want in One or 2 breedings In 5 litters over the last 10 years we have started getting the results we are looking For give us another 2 to 5 and you will See these Dogs with DUAL CH in front of thier names in AKC and UKC both....Thats where we are going our goal to breed the beagle that can go From Field to Show and from Show to field the way they shoud be...
Now as far as Dan and Nancy (lefgren) Go i would listen to them over MOST of todays TOP breeders. i may not always agree with what they have to say But I LISTEN
Oh And Dan Some may Say that You are just Rambling or babbling Also!!!!
Great post patch

TOUCHSTONEBGLS · Post by **TOUCHSTONEBGLS** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:23 am

TC, Lefgren was the one who said I was babbling which I find humor in. I also agree with much of his views but not all. We seem to see things much the same but from a different angle.
Most gun hunters have so little exposure to anything about beagle genetics or structure etc that they seem to just breed huntin dogs to huntin dogs and do pretty well at gettin more huntin dogs. Some are serious breeders but many are not.
Trialers seem to be far more exposed to the knowledge that will lead to true total dogs. Many have woke up and smelled the coffee. Some are slower than others to get stirrin. Taking dogs like Beau that is a combination of show and hunt breeding and acknowledging his unsurpassed hunt accomplishments as well as his #2 show dog ranking helps make the point. Many dogs have similar hunt traits but having the physical abillity to make the turns and stay on the line with a fair amount of speed is a certain advantage for a rabbit dog both hunting and trialing. His daughter runs a really nice track and can run strong all day. She will help make the point. I feel for those who worry about how there dog will hold up in the second or third round. I would like to see elimination style hunts with all 2 hr rounds. The only way to truly change the mindsets of some is to continue to breed quality hounds that are excellent in structure and hunt and run them to the winner's circle. Running show dogs with marginal hunt may be counterproductive because it reinforces the theory of "show dogs can't hunt". It is not due to their structure but rather it is due to their lack of excellent hunt instincts.
The hardest part of the process was going through numerous show females to find one with quallity hunt characteristics. If only show breeders would run their dogs enough to know what they are in the hunt. Do you know of any other show breeders who run their dogs? Only in the perfect world.

TC · Post by TC » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:37 am

If only show breeders would run their dogs enough to know what they are in the hunt.

Wouldnt that be nice!!!!!!!!
Sure would be helpful for the rest of us..
But then again I havnt found a LOT of show breeders that are truely helpful....

thornie · Post by **thornie** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:41 am

Sorry Dan, but I have to disagree with you about show dogs. Just take a look and read the pedigree's.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/3197/0007.html#pic

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:17 am

thornie wrote:Sorry Dan, but I have to disagree with you about show dogs. Just take a look and read the pedigree's.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/3197/0007.html#pic

Those pups are also by a AKC Show & obedience Champion that I would LOVE to breed one of my bitches too!!!

thornie · Post by **thornie** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:13 am

Honey, why keep me in suspense, what dog would that be. Here is a dog out of some of that breeding. My guess woulbe Mama's Boy

http://www.freewebs.com/briteye/

TOUCHSTONEBGLS · Post by **TOUCHSTONEBGLS** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:46 am

Thornie, I definetely know Michael's pedigree. He is a cross between hunt and show. The whole top of his pedigree is all show behind Briarhill Buster. The bottom side is hunting blood. My female is also Briarhill. My first Briarhill female did not have as good of hunt as the one I bred to Beau. The three females that I owned before her were also marginal at best. Silent trailing was a common fault. I do agree that the Briarhill line showed me better hunt than some bloodlines. Still interested in show lines with strong hunt but have had little response. When I say a show bred dog I am referring to one with all show breeding, not a good structured dog that is half hunt bloodlines. The young female I am showing is 5/8 show bloodlines. (Briarhill) on both Michael and my female. Hard to decide whether to breed back to a strong hunt line or to a show/hunt line. Any ideas on that? May breed them a couple different ways. My concern is getting too tight mouthed but also want to always improve on structure but not loose the hunt.

thornie · Post by **thornie** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:00 pm

Dan when you find some time, come go hunting with the yellow dog.

http://www.freewebs.com/biteye/

Beaglebrit · Post by **Beaglebrit** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:55 pm

I love this Topic!!!! I like a dog that will do it's job..and I like a dog that is beautiful..when the 2 come together it is wonderful!!!! The biggest issue I am finding is that some of the really nice UKC dogs that have field and show wins do not have the suitable style for the dogs we run in the field in our area. It may be a regional thing....but mention line control (one of our top requirements) and it gets greeted with the remark of No the dogs are too fast to have line control....Ask some AKC Show breeder about Voice....they can be equally as clueless with the response of we debark our dogs because of the neighbors... With out Voice can you have a quality field dog?.....the best part of this quest is the dogs, the constant learning ....and the experimentation....Will this breeding work..Will this training technique inspire...and it is also learning to make compromises to achieve the ultimate in performance and conformation.

TOUCHSTONEBGLS · Post by **TOUCHSTONEBGLS** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:55 pm

Correct beagle structure is not designed for extreme speed nor are they slow brace dogs. The standard requires strait pasterns which are better for endurence than speed. Bent pasterns are better for speed and you see lots of them in our hunting beagles but they are not correct breed type even though they are plenty functional in a 2 hr hunt with a format that promotes speed. Correct structure gives a good amount of speed but is more suited to excellent tracking abillity. Along with the balanced motion to make the turns to help a dog stay close on the line. Some sacrifices will be made in the first few generations breeding for the total dog. The end result of having both excellent structure and hunt are well worth the struggle. Voice is another great observation. Many of the show beagles that I have run with are marginal at best on voice. Know of any show lines that have a big hound voice? Know of any hunt lines that are known for a quallity hound voice that is used correctly (on runnable scent). Beau has sired pups with all kinds of voice - not something he seems to be dominant on. Are any sires dominant on excellent voice?