Show dog VS field dog conformation

[Windkist]

I've been reading this thread for a while and while I've kept Quiet its not because I'm not interested but, because i've wanted to see what everyone else's Opinion is and to kind of see where this is going ;-) Where I hope it doesn't go is the bashing of others dogs. We all have a different idea in our head of what we want and what our goals are. Thats the beauty of this. Each of us is an individual just like our dogs. Some want fast, some want slow and some want it all. While I've surfed this site over the last year or 2 I've seen some beagles that could probably finish their AKC conformation championships fairly easy and some that couldn't but, the point is that some just want a good running dog and again.. some what it ALL. No dog is perfect. Mine included. I don't see show dogs for the most part as cloddy or coarse. I don't see field dogs as Unattractive nor do I not like all the array of colors we have. I'm sure if I had a mind to I could take a nice blue tick and finish it. Its been done before. I took a field Ch dog to the nationals at Aldie in 2002 with my friend Kathy and even though the dog could have finished conformation wise he didn't have the attitude for it. Therein lies part of the problem. IF you want to do both you need to do both while they are young so, that they aren't geared for only one thing.

As for conformation. Look at what you have and what might be lacking and try to breed for those things you need while keeping what you want. Develop and "EYE" for what you would like to see in your kennels and maybe introduce some new blood now and then.

Oh.. and if you want to see feet that are not like stumps come see mine ;-) (dogs that is) I cannot stand the feet with no definition between leg and foot.

Leah

[SilverZuk]

I don't think anyone is baching dogs, and I hope no posts a picture of a dog other than their own.
If you post a picture, be prepared for opinions that you may not agree with.

I am indifferent. I already know my dog's faults and won't post a picture unless I am prepared to have it pointed out.
The gip I own and plan to breed is a good performer with good conformation.
I hope to improve both with the right stud.

The whole purpose of this thread was comparison of the differences of what works in the show and what works in the field.
There have been some good examples so far.

My opinion is that the breed conformation is flawed on looks vs. performance (or as OakHill pointed out that or the present interpretation).
Dog's that are the best performers don't look like the typical show dog.
I feel the reason is that the "ideal" conformation isn't the most conducive for field performance.

[S.R.Patch]

Another excellent bitch. 14.5 inches

diamond.jpg

Well I can't see the most important part (feet). Why are you standing her in grass to hide her long toes?

Had I thought, I should have thrown down a board. It was Spring and the rye & bluegrass was shooting up it's young tender growth in front of kennels. Rest assured, there were no "long toes", for she stood on them "up on toes".

Overall, I really like the build of that hound.
The ears appear a touch short. The neck appears a bit long, but may just be the way she is being held.

Your eye is perfect at discribing what you see! She is North Bucks Diamond, an English Pack hound. Her ears when drawn foreward only but come to the rear of the nose, but I somehow forgave her for this...
As to her neck, it is to reach the ground. You'll find a good length of neck most always accompanies good shoulders, while a short neck is usually coupled with a steep short shoulder(cloddy).

Now I'll compare her to a "show dog" conformation.
a. not tri-color
b. no brush on the tail
c. ears too small
d. chest too deep
etc.

I don't understand point "d.". Her chest comes just below the elbow, and there is equal part("air") below that point as there is above. If her chest were "too deep", there would be greater distance from top of back to depth of chest, than there was "air" below it. Too deep a chest will make a hound look short on leg in the front.

I am interested in the best field dogs I can find with good conformation. I will accept faults in conformation more so than "running faults.

In this, you will always have hounds useful for their intended purpose... ...Cheers!

[Windkist]

My opinion is that the breed conformation is flawed on looks vs. performance (or as OakHill pointed out that or the present interpretation).
Dog's that are the best performers don't look like the typical show dog.
I feel the reason is that the "ideal" conformation isn't the most conducive for field performance.

It's two fold. Hunters have been selecting dogs to HUNT and in some cases have chosen breeding stock ONLY by how they are in the field. Show people have chosen dogs who they feel are conformationally correct and ignored hunting ability. Both parties are guilty! I think what show dogs lack most is voice and other than that I believe and have heard from some field people that they run just fine. Do they run good enough to win competitions? NO! but, they have the instinct to chase a rabbit. In field dogs I see too many fronts that are crooked and rears that have almost no angles but, since some have no desire to correct the conformation they just continue on breeding for hunting ablility. Someone on another thread posted a pic of a lovely beagle bitch who just passed away. She looks to me like she could easily have finished. I do believe she was a field Ch. I'll bet many have nice enough beagles to finish an AKC CH. but, the dogs haven't been socialized enough in various situations to really do well.

I don't believe that hunting beagles have superior conformation and thats why they hunt. I think its more that they are driven and have the desire.

Leah

[oakhill]

I agree with Leah on the above post.

[S.R.Patch]

We have a Cocker who loves to chase rabbits, he is far from a rabbit hound tho...

Hunt qualities must come first when breeding hounds. Conformation need not be so much "excellent" in quality, as it must be at at least "adequate" level to perform the function or desired task. A hound that "breaks down" before the hunt is ended or shows unfit to perform the next day will be culled by most die in the wool hunters. Conformation is not ignored by the hunting fraternity but, form will follow funtion. Those tested and required to last the longest will have the better conformation by necessity.
When hares' are killed in the showring, I'll give it another look...

[Windkist]

Ahhh the old adage "Form follows function" If it were only 100% true. A beagle with a hearty nose and ample desire whose form is crooked and bent yet can keep going for hours is a beagle with drive and heart. Never mind that its tired and ready to drop. It keeps on keepin on! To breed such a creature as something with good form because it followed its function is hardly what anyone would desire but, that's exactly what has happened in some cases. A good dogman or woman will have an eye for soundness and conformation and therefore he or she will find form and hope for function to follow. Again.. does the hound have to chase a rabbit in such a way as to win a trial? Or.. if it just has the instinct to chase the rabbit and continue on chasing is that good enough? Does a show dog have to win WKC or Crufts? or.. can it be good and just become a champion and be good enough?

I saw a squirrel once in the hound group at a show. The entire hound ring became focused on this Thing who sat and stared for about 5 seconds before realizing it was in a BAD place!! ;-)

Leah

Leah

[TC]

I've got some 3/4 show stock that does fair but a lot depends on where that 3/4 came from, it sure ain't all the same

..
here is one that is 3/4 and he does ok has placements in Field and Show Both..is a NKC ARHA Bench Ch needs a win for his UKC BSCH a best male for his UKC CCH and is pointed in AKC Show
Are we there yet???/ No but getting Closer.
This hound has also Ran in a large pack trial of 44 big males and lasted after the first cut and made it into the top 12 But after being in on catching a Rabbit kinda Got to excited..this was almost 4 hours into the race and he Was in no way ready to quit!!!
i have ran him up to 6 hours one day and 5 the next With no sign of slowing down...As said he has placed in the show ring Jim and Connie were there at one show the only problem is that he Dont place as well at his present weight and i dont like letting him get to fat.....
I Agree that we all breed for what we like We are also in that 3rd Group.I have pretty much stayed out of all this as we will never change everybodys opinion but then again We dont have to.......We breed for ourselves and what we like.
We like to SHOW and We like to Compete in trials So we dont like to keep a dog that in only good in one format We have em sure but only to reach our goal... Will we get there? maybe not but it wont be from a lack of trying......And We have FUN doing it...

And this little bitch will scale a 6 foot fence to get to a rabbit and we have high hopes fro her also..

both of these dogs are Gun hunted as well as are all our hounds.....

[S.R.Patch]

Building a hound on looks and leaving hunt on the "altar" of blind hope is doomed for failure. Ahhh, but it is done every day by show folks who don't hunt their hounds...

Is a pretty beagle that won't hunt just another dog... A houndsman knows the look of a athlete, but that athlete is worthless to him if he first doesn't have the tools put together with sterling hunt qualities.

I saw a possum cross through our herd of cattle one day. Every cow stoppedd her grazing and surrounded the poor possum. The possum made a hasty retreat through leg and hoof and the cows followed the short distance putting the possum to ground at the woods edge. The cows never hunted another possum after that day but I'm sure the possum felt as your squirrel did... BIG OOPPssss....
We have Herford that are 3/4 and only 1/4 Angus. There "kick" still comes from the Angus tho...

[oakhill]

ROFLMAO @ Patch!!!

Good one!

[TC]

Sorry Deleted didnt realize the link wouldnt work...

[Honey Pot Hounds]

There ARE American breeders who have Beagles that can run the fur off a bunny and win on the show bench too. If I cared to hunt they are where I would buy my breeding stock from because I like a goodlooking animal as well as a versatile working one. To name my top favorites in order:
Sundown
Strongbow
Echo Run
Brushy Run

There are more...at the end of the day we only have so much time to do what we do with our dogs and not all of us have time to do both, or care to do both.

[Beagled1]

Building a hound on looks and leaving hunt on the "altar" of blind hope is doomed for failure. Ahhh, but it is done every day by show folks who don't hunt their hounds...

But you're making the same assumptions as would a show breeder wo mistakes prey drive for hunt, IMO. I've never believed the addage that form follows function - function follows selective breeding & form is a by product. Besides, the Standard was always meant to be a guide, not a Bible. Nevertheless, I do believe the instinct to hunt is still strong within certain bloodlines of show breeding as Cindy pointed out. I bet one could base a hunting pack on show stock alone, were they to breed to the right bloodlines.

We don't see show hounds hunting becuase I don't think many show breeders have the inclination to prove their hounds in that aspect ... doesn't mean the hunt has gone dead in their lines (oh, I'm sure it has in some bloodlines, but that would likely be the exception, not the rule). I was recently sold a nice adult bitch for the sole purpose of improving conformation in my lines. We tend to have some hare feet and overly long backs, so I wanted an in proportion hound that was not overdone, but would certainly fix our faults. Now, I bought her for one reason, but soon realized she had the potential to become a good bunny shagger. I let her run with my pack a few times, also took her out by herself & to my surprise, she did jump, chase (by SCENT, not sight!) and track that bunny *almost* like my seasoned hounds. She is way too tight mouthed (however, I can't really fault her for that because she was de barked) and is very "loose" on the line. After a few months with me, her line control is still iffy, but this girl has GRIT, desire, tenacity! She is all rabbit hound! I even had her and a field bred bitch out about a week ago, when we had a raccoon in our yard She nearly tore my fence down trying to get at it, treed it, and had to be dragged back in the house, lol. My field bred bitch had never seen a coon, roooooooed at it and took off like a bat out of you know where. In her defense, she's only about 12lbs soaking wet and this coon outweighed her by a longshot, lol.

The new bitch who is fast becoming one of my better hounds is an AKC show champion. She must be a decent one too, because she finished with four 4pt majors. Her breeder/owner do not run rabbits and I'm sure her breeder or the sire's owner had no clue a hound from their breeding has hunt ...

[Windkist]

The new bitch who is fast becoming one of my better hounds is an AKC show champion. She must be a decent one too, because she finished with four 4pt majors. Her breeder/owner do not run rabbits and I'm sure her breeder or the sire's owner had no clue a hound from their breeding has hunt ...

May I ask who is the breeder of this bitch and what is her pedigree?

thanks,

leah

[Beagled1]

May I ask who is the breeder of this bitch and what is her pedigree?

thanks,

leah

Leah ... I didn't purchase her directly from the breeder but his name is Myer Bishop. I believe he is more well known in show Bassets. Her sire/dam are CH Bayou Oaks Smudge x Camma Farms Chanel ...

Pedigree is: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/be ... 99788.html