NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Hi John. Email me at HoneyPotHounds@aol.com please.
Thanks!
Cindy

[mooredog]

[mooredog]

This is my pup out " A Walk In the Park" His Name Is "Hit it out of The Park " Parker

[Windkist]

This is my pup out " A Walk In the Park" His Name Is "Hit it out of The Park " Parker

Paul,

He looks nice. Hope he does well in training. Keep up the good work!!

leah

[Larry G]

Hi all, interesting thread. Thought I'd throw in my own $.02 worth on the show/field thing. I bred my exceptionally beautiful (for field bred) 13 inch bitch to a handsome hunk of 15 inch Lanbur genes that couldn't run a rabbit off the end of his nose, sure enough a C section was needed, don't know whose genes to blame. Half the pups were sold, don't know how they turned out but the 4 I kept are ALMOST as handsome as Dad and will punish a bunny better than some of my high dollar SPO blood lines. Now will they reproduce themselves, my guess is probably not. Any time you outcross two linebred strains together, the next generation is a big ????.

Everybody likes their looks, and their performance is... well, let's just say they ain't for sale.... but all the field guys want to know what they're "out of" which to them is the sire not the dam. "Never heard of it" is the usual reply.


The "bench judging" at most SPO events is a joke; some of the judges hardly know one end of a dog from the other, and I imagine a similar farce would occur if some of the show ring winners were entered in a field trial. There are a few guys out there, some of which are friends of mine, trying to change that. Good luck guys.

As a final thought, I don't believe proper conformation can be assessed by posing a dog, trotting him around and comparing what you see to a written standard. Yes, this is how well he conforms to a breed standard, but how much underlying unsoundness escapes the eye? A hard day's hunting, or several, is the best way to determine that. Then all those admiring adjectives have real meaning.

[blunder]

Now will they reproduce themselves, my guess is probably not

It will not be their gets that you will want to look to,
The quality (or lack of) will be in their grandchildren.

tom

[Moore Beagles]

I think I'll throw in my 3 1/2 cents(Inflation), because BlueIce got me hot. I have sat back and watched as a silent majority for some time, and this is my 1st posting. If you you want the same results you have always gotten, keep doing what your doing, but if you want better results you have to change something? My Bro MooreDawg & I decided to breed Beagles a couple years ago. We bought a couple dogs(the best we saw).Then earlier this year my brother started chating with folks on this forum, and followed suggestions from others, and found nothing but help, and support. We have 2 pups now from TOP breeders, that would have been nothing but a pipe dream for us a year ago. They look, act, move better than anything I have seen. I didn't know dogs like this were available before. We have one of Rebel's pups, and one of Parkers pups(see above photo), and we plan to show em, Hunt em & breed em.
Don & Dave McVays have been great people that have been nothing but encouraging and more than supportive, and we are happy to call them friends. My brother has also contacted Leah, and she has shown that she is a person of rare character, she is willing to share what she knows with just about anyone. Thanks Sundown, Thanks Windkist I LOVE those (SUNDOWN/WINKIST) Beagles. I have yet to see Walk in the Park, but I have adored from afar, and hope to see him some time soon. Now I have seen Glory, and she is everything I ever want in a Beagle. Thats my 3 1/2 cents worth! Gregg

[TC]

Been Going back over this post and just thought I would add my own Comments to all this.
We have been breeding for years now to show the Show folk and the Hunt folk that the two ARE the SAME dog
As our motto says from Show to Field from Field to Show the way it should be!!
Well we feel that we are finally reaching our Goals
Maybe not this generation but hopefully soon
If anybody would like to go back and look at some of our original posts on this and RHO boards you will see that it has been a long struggle we are really happy that the two have finally started to come together.
I caint even begin to describe the stuff we went through when we first decided that we Wanted the best of both Worlds HUNT and SHOW
We were Snubbed by the Show folk for many years because we actually Hunted our Dogs. We started out with a Field bred Bitch (Kristinas little Rose)
And when we decided we wanted to breed her went looking for a Dog to add more Conformation So We went to the Show Lines!!!!!!
GOOD LUCK we were told.
When we finally did get a chance to breed to a Show line it was only to a Dog that had not yet reached his Championship But Was Good Enough For what we wanted or needed as we were told…
I wont go into all the Gory Details here As we still like to Show now and again LOL
We have learned A lot over the years from Some of the best out there.
BUT it didn’t happen over night and we still have a long way to go.
We did not do this by BUYING good Dogs we did this by BREEDING to good Dogs
This means A lot to us because we did it our Way. Breeding our Best to our Best With an outcross here and there. To add more hunt or better conformation or Both!!
In My opinion this is the only way and could not have been done without help from others, you just have to keep looking and asking. Do your research on the lines find the dog that best fits your needs and then ask. I cannot tell you how many times we were turned down, But there is a breeder out there that will help just keep looking.
It’s a lot easier now than it was a few years ago.


The following are some of the comments made on this post that I wanted to comment on

TOUCHSTONE wrote

Others will breed with the goal of developing dogs that have structure like Parker combined with excellent hunt characteristics. This is where the breed will reach its full potential. Several breeders must accomplish this or the gene pool of TOTAL DOGS will be too limited. Dan M

I agree with this statement we must all work together to bring together the divisions I don’t see this happening in the near future though I hear A lot of Well they have show dog in em and we all know they caint hunt!!!! Or that’s a field bred Dog and we all know they have to many Problems in their background.
Just attend any of the shows or trials sometime you will hear a lot of this.
As an example we were showing a few weeks back and a couple fellas were standing behind us Talkin next thing I hear is well them are Show dogs And I bet they aint never had their nose on the ground!!!!!
Well I turned around and Told em Any time they wanted to see em Run just let me know and gave them a brief history on our dogs handed them my Card and Still aint heard from em!!!
And at the same show When Another breeder was told that ours were From hunt lines said Hmm Got lucky with this litter huh! After explaining to them about our line of dogs they just said well that just aint for us….
Its these Kind of attitudes that I feel hurt the breed more than Anything We need to be able to Open Peoples minds More.

S.R.Patch wrote

The gene pool you spoke of is another advantage of bring two long divided hunting hound groups together. Hounds bred separately along the same line, for the same intent, making the perfect outcross, as many of the old masters have said. Maybe this will create the "perfect storm", I don't know, it's yet to be seen...

But it is getting better you must admit. Let me ask you WHAT was your attitude toward Show Dogs 3 or 4 years ago?
Would you breed to a show hound if you thought it would add conformation to yours? or consider Showing one of your Dogs!
Some of those Patch hounds of yours are Beautiful Dogs With Great conformation

BlueIceBeagles

Honey Pot, you say you had a male you would have studded out to field breeders. How convenient you don't have him anymore. Because for $350, most of us would have jumped at the chance to use him. I don't believe your claims. I'm sorry to be so cynical, but even a show breeder who I have the utmost respect for, and who has helped me on numerous occasions, and admired the fact that I strive to better the conformation of my hunting stock - even she would not consider using a show quality male on a field line feamle. She admires my bitch and was impressed that such good breed type was attained from 100% field breeding, but still, the line is drawn at intermingling the two lines.

Well I had a WHOLE page wrote up just for you. I am Sorry that you feel you have gotten such a RAW deal. Have you listened to what these folks have said??? What you would need to do in order to be able to use their lines? Or Did you just COP an Attitude with em like you did here?
How many breeders have you contacted?
As an example we contacted 4 or 5 our first go around!!
Have you tried explaining to them What you are trying to do with your lines? or Do you even truly Know yourself?
Now as far as your Mentor Sorry But I would be looking for another!!!!
Did this breeder offer the services of another hound or give you the name of another breeder? Like us We have a list of Folks we know that we can refer others to depending on what they need or what they are looking for…As far as a line being drawn at intermingling the two!!!!! BS


Larry G wrote

As a final thought, I don't believe proper conformation can be assessed by posing a dog, trotting him around and comparing what you see to a written standard. Yes, this is how well he conforms to a breed standard, but how much underlying unsoundness escapes the eye? A hard day's hunting, or several, is the best way to determine that. Then all those admiring adjectives have real meaning

I agree with this Totally
I would like to take this a step Further also…
I Feel that ALL Conformation Judges should have to attend a few Field trials so that they can Actually SEE what the dog is being bred for!!!!!
Seems that Some forgot and Others never had a Clue…..

NOW here is something I have LEARNED FROM BOTH Sides the Shameless BRAG

CCH Rosies just by Chance


CH/CCH Keepsake Crewse-N- Mizz-T


NAT/INT CH CCH Rosies Poka Dot keepsake


Dotties pup RBIMBS Crewse-N-lug Nut


Some of the Above Dogs Doin What they do

[S.R.Patch]

The following are some of the comments made on this post that I wanted to comment on

S.R.Patch wrote

The gene pool you spoke of is another advantage of bring two long divided hunting hound groups together. Hounds bred separately along the same line, for the same intent, making the perfect outcross, as many of the old masters have said. Maybe this will create the "perfect storm", I don't know, it's yet to be seen...

But it is getting better you must admit. Let me ask you WHAT was your attitude toward Show Dogs 3 or 4 years ago?

My comment was as to why I bred in the English hounds, they have the proven conformation and are long bred from those hounds who hunt the hare.

Would you breed to a show hound if you thought it would add conformation to yours? or consider Showing one of your Dogs!
Some of those Patch hounds of yours are Beautiful Dogs With Great conformation

I'd rather just agree to disagree and go on...but...since you ask...
I don't see anything getting better or proven yet...I wish you the best of luck though...
My attitude towards the Show dog remains the same/hobby hound.
No, I would never knowingly breed to a show hound to gain conformation, conformation is the combination of strength & movement but a rabbitdawg is this, along with so many things never tested or seen in a ring. The most important things about a rabbitdawg are not seen with the eye, but only become known in the field. I would feel the same way about breeding to a brace hound to add nose & patience, to much, to chance the loss for the gain. Both these examples are specialist in their area and are bred to the extreme without regard to the purpose of the breed.
I've no inkling to show hounds in a ring or on a bench, but think it's fine for those who do...
Most of my patch hounds are ugly, so the more they stay in the brush, the better I like them. I'm just adding the English, so when they come out I won't have to throw the rug over them...



Larry G wrote

As a final thought, I don't believe proper conformation can be assessed by posing a dog, trotting him around and comparing what you see to a written standard. Yes, this is how well he conforms to a breed standard, but how much underlying unsoundness escapes the eye? A hard day's hunting, or several, is the best way to determine that. Then all those admiring adjectives have real meaning

I agree with this Totally
I would like to take this a step Further also…
I Feel that ALL Conformation Judges should be hunting judges, so that they can Actually KNOW what the dog is being bred for, and having SEEN what succeeds best, will have working knowledge of how a hound should be built!!!!!
Seems that Some forgot and Others never had a Clue…..

[blunder]

The one thing I would disagree with Patch is that your comments would
tend to throw the same blanket over everyone that shows dogs.
My reality is that right now is the first time in my 65 years on this planet
that I have more show titled dawgs than field titled dawgs, and that
probably isn't all that uncommon. I would also say that if
you spend more days hunting in a year than I do,,,, you don't have a job!

My personal opinion is that the Beagle is one of an unbelievable small
number of breeds that IS still capable of producing a DC if
someone with the time and money would pursue it.

tom

[Windkist]

I think I'll throw in my 3 1/2 cents(Inflation), because BlueIce got me hot. I have sat back and watched as a silent majority for some time, and this is my 1st posting. If you you want the same results you have always gotten, keep doing what your doing, but if you want better results you have to change something? My Bro MooreDawg & I decided to breed Beagles a couple years ago. We bought a couple dogs(the best we saw).Then earlier this year my brother started chating with folks on this forum, and followed suggestions from others, and found nothing but help, and support. We have 2 pups now from TOP breeders, that would have been nothing but a pipe dream for us a year ago. They look, act, move better than anything I have seen. I didn't know dogs like this were available before. We have one of Rebel's pups, and one of Parkers pups(see above photo), and we plan to show em, Hunt em & breed em.
Don & Dave McVays have been great people that have been nothing but encouraging and more than supportive, and we are happy to call them friends. My brother has also contacted Leah, and she has shown that she is a person of rare character, she is willing to share what she knows with just about anyone. Thanks Sundown, Thanks Windkist I LOVE those (SUNDOWN/WINKIST) Beagles. I have yet to see Walk in the Park, but I have adored from afar, and hope to see him some time soon. Now I have seen Glory, and she is everything I ever want in a Beagle. Thats my 3 1/2 cents worth! Gregg

Thanks Gregg for the very kind words ;-)

Leah

[Windkist]

TC,

You have much to be proud of!! What beautiful dogs!! You are doing what we should all strive for ;-)

Leah

[S.R.Patch]

The one thing I would disagree with Patch is that your comments would
tend to throw the same blanket over everyone that shows dogs.
My reality is that right now is the first time in my 65 years on this planet
that I have more show titled dawgs than field titled dawgs, and that
probably isn't all that uncommon. I would also say that if
you spend more days hunting in a year than I do,,,, you don't have a job!

My personal opinion is that the Beagle is one of an unbelievable small
number of breeds that IS still capable of producing a DC if
someone with the time and money would pursue it.

tom

Tom,
As much as you all would like to put all hounds under the same blanket, imho, there is a distinct difference between "show hounds" and hunting hounds that are "shown".
The hunting packs in the UK show their hounds once a year at the different shows. It is limited like this so the showing part does not overshadow the true propose and intent of the breed. Even this is not infallible thou, for it is up to, and the responsibility of, each master to put forth his best hunter, and not be lead by fashion or fancy of what some "look" may put a win on at the flags, but rather, what form is best accomplishing the task in the field. If only the best hunters are being entered into the shows, their should become well known, a uniform or common "look/conformation" of what succeeds best in a hunting hound"...
Of all the hounds I've seen in the shows, I've never been able to tell which had the best nose, correct use of mouth, hunt/desire, courage & heart, of a keen hunter, or worse, those with vices, which render them worthless as rabbitdawgs...

Not to throw salt on open flesh but, your statement of having more Show CH's for the first time, rather than Field CH's, could be taken as a poor reflection on your breeding selection or, the influence Show dogs have had on you & your hounds...
If you are happy with your hounds, then I am happy for you...

[blunder]

The hunting packs in the UK show their hounds once a year at the different shows.

Patch, you are aware that a beagle won BIS at Cruft last year.
But I do know full well what you are saying because I have been going to
field trials of one kind or another since I was a kid (40s), and this
argument is the same now as it was then. You also know as well as I do
tho' that many good trial/hunting dogs wouldn't be able to do squat if it
wasn't for the environment that they grow up in.

Not to throw salt on open flesh but, your statement of having more
Show CH's for the first time, rather than Field CH's, could be taken as a
poor reflection on your breeding selection or, the influence Show dogs
have had on you & your hounds...

Nooooooo, that is because my daughter has been doing a lot of showing,
and I have been a "slacker" and hunting instead of trialling
(call it a benefit of getting old)
Plus it is impossable to put a FC on a Beagle in Utah, but the hunting
(waterfowl, upland bird, big game, and rabbit) can be as good as it gets.

tom

[TC]

Having more
Show CH's for the first time, rather than Field CH's, could be taken as a
poor reflection on your breeding selection or, the influence Show dogs
have had on you & your hounds...

OR this very Well could be that He was in the same Boat we were kinda hard to Champion a Dog in the field when you only have a total 0f 6 trials a year (none in Utah) With at the most 40 dogs total entry in ALL Classes
4 UKC and 2 AKC most at 6 to 8 hours or more away compared to 30 plus shows a year it’s hard to get those WINS.
One of our Main Reasons For the Move

This is also where $$$$$ Comes into play HOW many can afford to send their Dogs with a handler all over the country to trial
HOW many other breeders Would TRIAL another persons hound for them? Especially when they are trying to promote their OWN hounds.

I do commend and recognize YOUR contributions to the breed patch.
For without Folks like you Remaining true to the lines. Is what keeps the hounds True it’s nice to know that those original Lines are still out there and will not be lost......