14 Billion Auto Bailout Dies in Senate

[Bev]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_ ... ress_autos

Discuss? What are everyone's feelings on the UAW refusing to negotiate or compromise a little for the bailout? Now they have nothing.

[Tim H]

Come on now, we all know it's the greedy CEO's that are the real problem.

[tommyg]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_ ... ress_autos

Discuss? What are everyone's feelings on the UAW refusing to negotiate or compromise a little for the bailout? Now they have nothing.

Bev maybe Dr Chris and Pine Mtn can blame this one on Bush to. UNION GREED,will cost workers their jobs but of corse its the Republicans fault.

[bluegrass]

I read that the main problem was the failure of the Unions to concede wage concessions...sounds like they still want to do business as usual and have the rest of the US pay for it...typical union sludge. I have ALWAYS bought American cars, but if the US government gets its hands on GM, Ford and Chrysler I won't be as inclined to support that grab...the Toyota Tundra is a very nice looking truck anyway....


Tony

[Dr. Chris]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_ ... ress_autos

Discuss? What are everyone's feelings on the UAW refusing to negotiate or compromise a little for the bailout? Now they have nothing.

Bev maybe Dr Chris and Pine Mtn can blame this one on Bush to. UNION GREED,will cost workers their jobs but of corse its the Republicans fault.

It's not "union greed", its union survival. If you look at it, it's not the wages at all. The wages are pretty much the same for all auto workers, anywhere from $28.00 to $31.00 an hour. It's all about the "benefits". The union benefits are what defines the union and what sets union jobs above the rest. The "benefits" are the backbone of the union and if you take away the benefits you than take away the need for a union. This is another attempt to "break" the union, and catching the union when their down {which means catching thousands of workers that have children and families "down"} and kicking them while their down to get their way is just another example of the "Big Boys" in D.C. that don't give a crap about the middle class. For D.C to be preaching: American, American, American but at the same time, making it hard for American factories to stay alive and opening every door possible for "non-American" businesses {in which many of those same big boys in D.C. have got their greedy hands in those non-American businesses} is a big joke. It's all about lining their own pockets. I don't blame Bush or his administration. They were for it. Bush and Obama both wanted this to happen. The "D.C. GREED" will cost not only these workers jobs, but many, many more. The auto workers are just the beginning. Do you remember when some American factories moved to other countries so they could pay little wages to get the same product? Same scam except the joke is on us. Now we have non-American businesses coming to the US and under-cutting American based businesses to get products made at a lower rate and, worse yet, we buy their products and again under-cut American based businesses. That’s insane! If these same D.C. politicians have their way, the US will practacally cease to produce steel and it will be shipped from other countries. That for the most part has already begun. And many, many other American factories and products are on the same course to face the same fate, and their D.C. pockets will get even fatter. I believe that if you are in the Senate or Congress and you are able to benefit from your vote because you do have financial interest or gain in "non-American" factories and/or products, you should not have a vote. Unions not willing to back down are what are keeping American based factories and products alive. But it's hard to stand up when "your own" {American "turn coat" Politicians} are fighting against you rather than backing you, {both Democrats & Republicans}. This is not a Democrat or Republican thing, this is a “cover your ass and fill your pockets” thing. Their not for you or any other Americans, they are out for their wallets! If the average guy "like union workers" don't take a stand, than we might as well succeed to the New World Order and the One World Government, because that is where we are heading. Ironic, all that has been happening in the last few years almost sounds Biblical. Maybe we are that close to the end times.

[tommyg]

58 % of Americans disagree with the Big 3 bail out. Toyota 46$ and hour counting Benefits---GM 69$ dollars an hour counting benefits,don't take a math wizard to see GM needs to cut some fat. They need Chapter 11 restructering not a car zar and the government in deeper in their lives. Things will get better but not by handing out money to ANY business that is failing,but buy letting them fail,thats what its all about here you either make it or you don't,success or failure. Thats what we do we either start a business and make it work or it goes under,we need to be giving incentives to new business with tax breaks and have fair taxes for all business,thats what creates jobs. No one gives me money back if I make a bad decission. Government is out of control,the American people need to see it or we all will become slaves to it. Also we can blame NAFTA for loseing jobs here. Just think if they would have devided up the money to people who owe a morage all business would be in great shap,that would boost the econ. Pay off the house buy a car take a vacation all business would have made money but that make to much scence to give the money back to the folks that worked for it.> Its time to apply the Inheritance Tax.
>
> Accounts Receivable Tax
> Building Permit Tax
> CDL license Tax
> Cigarette Tax
> Corporate Income Tax
> Dog License Tax
> Excise Taxes
> Federal Income Tax
> Federal Unemployment Tax
> (FUTA)
>
> Fishing License Tax
> Food License Tax
> Fuel Permit Tax
> Gasoline At x (44.75 cents per gallon)
> Gross Receipts Tax
>
> Hunting License Tax
> Inheritance Tax
> Inventory Tax
> IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of
> tax) Liquor Tax
>
> Luxury Taxes
> Marriage License Tax
> Medicare Tax
> Personal Property Tax
>
> Property Tax
> Real Estate Tax
> Service Charge Tax
>
> Social Security Tax
> Road Usage Tax
> Sales Tax
> Recreational Vehicle Tax
> School Tax
> State Income Tax
> State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
> Telephone Federal Excise Tax
> Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
> Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
> Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
> Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
> Telephone State and Local Tax
> Telephone Usage Charge Tax
> Utility Taxes
> Vehicle License Registration Tax
> Vehicle Sales Tax
> Watercraft Registration Tax
> Well Permit Tax
> Workers Compensation Tax
>
> STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
>
>
> Not ONE of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation
> was the most prosperous in the world.
>
> We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle
> class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What
> happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' And I still have to 'press 1'
> for English!?!?!?!?

[TC]

What the heck Does a CEO For the big 3 Do to Earn $86 mil a year??????????
now if they would drop thier wages too, like the CEO at Ford maybe just maybe they could afford to pay all those overpaid Union Folks for another mo!!!!!
Now if YOU could Save your JOB and your Co by taking a TEMPORARY $2 cut an Hour in wages Wouldnt you???
better to have a little less Pay than NO job at all!!!!!
myself i say NO WAY to bailin em out....They have to adapt or fail...Just like the rest of us....
I have Seen GOOD jobs Go away in the timber industry BECAUSE of UNION Greed!!!!
I Cannot Fault the Folks Working for those kinds of wages not Wanting to give them up..But Come on Caint you do without that new car/boat this year??????
Cut back the fat......

[Dr. Chris]

Yes the union is demanding. And yes they fight to get as much as possible for their workers. There is a good reason for it. Washington “does” because Washington “can” and they know that the majority of the people will “obey” so therefore they “do”. They do what they want, when they want, how they want. Like most out take advantage of somebody, you give them an inch, they take a mile. They now ask for part of your wages and most of your benefits, that’s the inch. So what is next? Where is the mile? In two years? Five years? Ten years? How much control do we allow the Government have over businesses and companies? Do we let the federal government blackmail the American based businesses with the threat of allowing them to go under to non-American businesses taking over here in our own backyard? {That they have an interest in and line their pockets with} That’s why unions say “NO” when the federal government try’s to “blackball” businesses that are union based. Like it or not, unions have always survived and is the backbone of “fairness” in that survival. Yes they need to negotiate and they will, but they don’t need to bend over and hand the politicians in Washington the KY. And how any politician in Washington can condemn any business for mismanagement is beyond me, they have brought upon a recession. They have oppressed the people of the US with the greatest burden in the history of our country with taxes for everything and anything, and we are in the worst shape ever. Yet other countries are profiting by the billions off our country. Of course, those “other countries” are lining the pockets of our politicians that we elect. I don’t know how anybody could be against a union that is fighting to better the lives and families of their workers, and I don’t know how people “sheep” can support the politicians that so clearly have one thing in mind, to get rich at your expense. Don’t think that there won’t be a compromise, there will be great repercussions if there is not support from the government. They will be cutting the throats of thousands of families that pay bills, mortgages, loans, TAXES, and most important of all to these guys in Washington, cutting the throats of people that vote, and neither Party wants to give the other Party an Army of pissed off people with no jobs to rally around them at the next election. And all of these people are related to more people and all will be remembered on Election Day next time around. All those that voted “Nay” to the bailout have all of this in the back of their minds. There will be a settlement before it is over.

[TC]

The GOV didnt go to them They went to the GOV in their Private jets With their hands out!!!!!!
WHY should WE as Tax payers HAVE to bail out a Co for pee poor management and Greed???????
Why Do We have to pay $30.000 for a car that only takes $10.000 to make??
because the other $20.000 is For union perks and Executive pay....
I Say make em figure it out on their Own!!!! it Aint my Fault that they couldnt manage their Business better!!!!!!

Again just WHAT DOES a CEO in these LARGE Co Do to Earn 86 MILLION a YEAR?????????????
They caint Survive on 100.000????????
Shoot that would leave $85,900 000 To pay More workers
hell pay each Worker 100,000 a year and you could still build a few more plants or God Forbide Build a BETTER MOUSETRAP!!!!
There is probably a handfull of Folks out on the Floor of those plants that could do a better job With a LOT LESS MONEY
GREED!!! plain and Simple !!!!!
How many or Those UNION REPS and Stewards have lined their pockets over the years?????

[tommyg]

Now Dr Chris you voted Democrat and you are saying we're over taxed,that realy makes scence. Yes the Political system has run a muck and it needs fixed worse than The Big 3 but folks keep voteing for the same Washington insiders,Obamas change will never come thank God.

[bluegrass]

It's not "union greed", its union survival. If you look at it, it's not the wages at all.




Dr Chris, for once you are correct, but NOT in the way you meant it with the rest of your post...it is about wages, UNION BOSSES' WAGES...the rank and file have been lavished with "benefits" that used to be called fringe benefits, now they are seen as a right and are demanded by greedy union bosses who in turn help create greedy line workers by telling them that Health Benefits with no weekly premium, pay for striking, pay for not working and endless unemployment benefits are the norm...a restructuring is what is needed, not a bailout so that business as usual can go on.


Does anyone here share in the irony that as recently as this past spring the BIG THREE were being castigated, castrated and villified by the liberals in this country for being some of the biggest polluters, obstructionists to progress, etc, and NOW they (liberals) start screaming about how the BIG THREE MUST BE SAVED...hell, Michael Moore even made a movie that tried to cast GM in the worst possible light, now HE is calling on the Government to bail out GM...hypocrites to the very end. Its all about control and the Libs in Congress want that control so they can force us to drive and buy what THEY say is best for us...not what we WANT, but what Government deems we NEED...I for one say THANK GOD ALMIGHTY for Sen Mitch McConnell and those that helped put the kybosh on this crap...furthermore to HE.LL with President Bush if he circumvents the will of the people and uses that other money intended for WALL STREET (another fiasco) to bail out the car makers.



Tony

[S.R.Patch]

This is borrowed money from China. Guess what Bank of America went and did with !/2 their bail-out money, yup, went and bought stock in the Bank of China, no oversight committee established yet to regulate what the banks do with their bail-out money!!! The whole Country is ate-up with greed and it's a graball to see who sitting in the chair and who's out of the game when the music stops. Mean while, their nit-picking the auto Co's to death over the rent money to buy time to restructure I believe this is to throw the attention away from the Banking fiasco going on, hording the borrowed money into clearing up their own messes, while at the same time breaking the back of America. The whole Gov. are betraying their people or are to stupid to see what the game is being played.
It is the rising cost of health insurance that has the burdened the Co's and raised the per employee cost. Yet there are 1000's that get care and don't work, why should those that work loose their care? the cost to those that work is spread around to pay for those who don't.
What's happening now, is the same thing that happened to us 8 years ago, only on a MUCH grander scale. We were handed over by our Governor, to a wasteful poorly ran Co. and it nearly wiped us out. If we hadn't had the cash and equity to have bought the time to fend off the debtors while cleaning up the balance sheets, we would have been wiped out. The auto Co's will come through this, the only question is, will the share and bond holders get wiped out along with the employees in Bk11(better for the Co.), or will the rent monies be paid to buy time for restructuring while keeping the investors intact. Most I've seen have went into Bk and wiped everyone out, then the Co. comes out solvent again and the stock is newly issued and shoots to the moon on the value that was taken from the old investors...
I feel so sorry for everyone because I have already felt and seen how the game is played. This is bigger, a whole lot BIGGER. Millions of us will be without jobs, they will build new overpasses and bridges so we will have a shelters over our heads. We can only hope the auto makers go under so we can get a job pulling the rickshaws.
As for me, I'm jumping the train and heading west, the Chinese love to tour the old west and I feel train robing may come more into fashion (just call me Butch or Sundance )...best of luck and keep those carpetbaggers in the city...

[Tim H]

I've seen this happen in many small plants around the country, the union gets so focused on getting everything they can and they drive the company out of business because it loses profitability. Then you have a bunch of unemployed people who make nothing because they didn't want to give up $2 an hour and only make $18 an hour. Instead they end up making $0 an hour and complain about the company shipping their jobs overseas. Have you ever seen where a company opens the doors to replacement workers when the union workers decide to strike because they aren't getting paid a "fair wage"? There is no shortage of replacement workers who are willing to work the same job for less money. Is it really the companies who are sending the jobs overseas? The unions position is if they can't have the jobs then no other American will and they get their way, jobs go overseas.

Now the union has decided that they would rather see the company fail then make less than $30 an hour. They are going to end up with $0 an hour and the jobs will go overseas and they will blame the CEO's. Socialism fails everytime it is tried, the unions are a form of socialism. When you set up a system where those who are not producing get a wage from those who are producing the demand will not be able to keep up with the supply.

[S.R.Patch]

Yup, our CEO's only mak'in 7.4 mil this year, he''s definitely tak'n one in the chest for the company...
You guys kill me I don't think you've seen squat...
How 'bout I get James to bring 'round the private jet and we pick you guys up and go out to diner and talk about it...
There's only 375000 that lost their jobs last week but that's not enough for you guys, you want the whole Country busts so slave labor is not only available in China and you don't have to pay the shipping cost to get the product back here.
I know not all Unions are created equal but I'm also not naive enough to believe a $2 dollar cut is all the Auto Co.is asking for from the Union and if that is all, it ain't enough to save the Co. anyway. The Union ain't balk'n over $2. Let's see a print out of the concessions ask for.

When my father made .64 per hr., a nice new car cost $2400., that was almost 2 years gross earnings. How much do you gross a year now compared to what a new car cost?

[wildhare2]

For too long it has been too good. Now the UAW is in trouble and it's not just thier faults. The CEO's won't take a pay cut either. They need some re-structure to thier union agreement. I am in the electricians union, but I don't get 95% sub pay if I get laid off. I don't get paid if I don't go to work. I don't get holliday's and sick pay and all of that stuff. If they would get rid of the sub pay, take a small pay cut, and only get paid when they go to work the auto companies would be in good shape. How can you make a company money if you pay a person 40,000 per year when they aren't even there making a product? I hate to say this, but the UAW has given every union a bad name.

I would take a pay cut if I knew I would keep my job! The cow that they have milked for all these years is about dried up. Need to put her in pasture for a bit. JMHO