I'm astounded that the thread below is so quiet. This CA move on HSUS's part is the first U.S. effort to ban pack hunting of rabbits, hare and foxes, as was done in England, yet everyone yawns. Why is that? What have I missed here? You can't even run a single hound under this proposal.
Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org
Incredible !!
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 682
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
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Bob,
I hope you are really not that surprised at the lack of interest in your warnings of impending doom by the everyday hound owner/hunter/trialer. While most are really great people, they like so many other outdoor enthusiasts are under the impression that if you just ignore things they will get better. As a past officer in our local F&G club and county sportsmen federation I all to often felt alone in the fight. I am not as active as I once was because of changing family situations, kids growing etc. it will not be long however till I can again get active. In the mean time I do what i can writting letters and hope others can hold the fort for a little while longer. I think many others find themselves in the same situation as me. But then again there are just as many that fall into the category of acting like all is well in Houndsville. The other problem I have seen is that there is an almost gang like mentality with some when it comes to different types of quarry pursued, registery affiliation, even style of hound. This has people spending more time bickering with each other than seeing the real enemy. The enemy being those who would like nothing more than to bring about an end to all hunting and fishing. These same people gain great pleasure and optimism when they witness us turning on ourselves.
We had better wake up and realize that even if we can not take up the sword and fight the enemy we had better at least stand together as one!
To do less would be as damaging as selling your hounds and joining their ranks.
Best of luck Bob,
And thanks,
NYH
I hope you are really not that surprised at the lack of interest in your warnings of impending doom by the everyday hound owner/hunter/trialer. While most are really great people, they like so many other outdoor enthusiasts are under the impression that if you just ignore things they will get better. As a past officer in our local F&G club and county sportsmen federation I all to often felt alone in the fight. I am not as active as I once was because of changing family situations, kids growing etc. it will not be long however till I can again get active. In the mean time I do what i can writting letters and hope others can hold the fort for a little while longer. I think many others find themselves in the same situation as me. But then again there are just as many that fall into the category of acting like all is well in Houndsville. The other problem I have seen is that there is an almost gang like mentality with some when it comes to different types of quarry pursued, registery affiliation, even style of hound. This has people spending more time bickering with each other than seeing the real enemy. The enemy being those who would like nothing more than to bring about an end to all hunting and fishing. These same people gain great pleasure and optimism when they witness us turning on ourselves.
We had better wake up and realize that even if we can not take up the sword and fight the enemy we had better at least stand together as one!
To do less would be as damaging as selling your hounds and joining their ranks.
Best of luck Bob,
And thanks,
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
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NYH,
Thanks for the thoughtful words of support. You've accurately described the general hunter complacency problem. Based on the last three years of this work, I'd have to say this attitude and fragmentation is worse in hounds, least in retrievers. Very few have the desire to learn about the threat or how to respond to it. No one likes or cares about politicians or lobbyists until it's too late.
Boomer - no.
CA AB 342 would amend the Fish and Game Code to make it unlawful to "take" any mammal for hunting purposes as well as to train any dog to do this except under a permit ... "Take" means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill. AB 342 would also repeal Section 4756 that expressly authorized the limited use of dogs in bear hunting.
Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org
Thanks for the thoughtful words of support. You've accurately described the general hunter complacency problem. Based on the last three years of this work, I'd have to say this attitude and fragmentation is worse in hounds, least in retrievers. Very few have the desire to learn about the threat or how to respond to it. No one likes or cares about politicians or lobbyists until it's too late.
Boomer - no.
CA AB 342 would amend the Fish and Game Code to make it unlawful to "take" any mammal for hunting purposes as well as to train any dog to do this except under a permit ... "Take" means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill. AB 342 would also repeal Section 4756 that expressly authorized the limited use of dogs in bear hunting.
Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org
Gee, thanks Bob and NYH, thanks for your generalizations of hunters and hounds people. I can only assume you were talking about me. I also appreciate the kind words you have to say about your fellow hounds people. Is that one of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? I must have skipped that chapter. Did you want me to write a letter post marked from Ohio? If I called do you not think they have caller ID and would know where I was calling from? Were you looking for a high five via the net? A pat on the back?
I started fighting the ARA's thirty years ago when no one was listening. I was a member a PPF THIRTY years ago! Heard of it? I have been to many public forums with Ingrid Newkirk and others in attendance. I have protested when they have protested just so people would have or know that there was another side to an issue. I would like to have a dime for every time I contacted a State or National Legislator.
The bombardment of the ARA's is, at the very least, numbing. Ever heard of trapping? I am a trapper Bob, think I don't have lumps to show for that? Think I haven't given hundreds of dollars towards that? My daughter is a type one diabetic, think I'm not involved in animal research? My industry is Meat Processing. Think I'm not involved there as well? Have you been to the schools and seen what is being taught concerning animals and the environment? It's not just a legislative battle.
No one is "yawning" here guys. Your freaking arrogance is astounding.
I started fighting the ARA's thirty years ago when no one was listening. I was a member a PPF THIRTY years ago! Heard of it? I have been to many public forums with Ingrid Newkirk and others in attendance. I have protested when they have protested just so people would have or know that there was another side to an issue. I would like to have a dime for every time I contacted a State or National Legislator.
The bombardment of the ARA's is, at the very least, numbing. Ever heard of trapping? I am a trapper Bob, think I don't have lumps to show for that? Think I haven't given hundreds of dollars towards that? My daughter is a type one diabetic, think I'm not involved in animal research? My industry is Meat Processing. Think I'm not involved there as well? Have you been to the schools and seen what is being taught concerning animals and the environment? It's not just a legislative battle.
No one is "yawning" here guys. Your freaking arrogance is astounding.
"The best view of big government is in the rear view mirror as you are driving away from it" -- Ronald Reagan
Bob,
You're right about the definition of "take." It just seemed like all of the other means of "taking" they mentioned were capture and/or kill-methods, not means of pursuit, harassment, etc. The term "take" wasn't used for any of the other mentions of hunting, harassment, etc, in the rest of the legislation, so it seems weird that they'd suddenlty throw that term in there.
Oh well, I stand corrected!
You're right about the definition of "take." It just seemed like all of the other means of "taking" they mentioned were capture and/or kill-methods, not means of pursuit, harassment, etc. The term "take" wasn't used for any of the other mentions of hunting, harassment, etc, in the rest of the legislation, so it seems weird that they'd suddenlty throw that term in there.
Oh well, I stand corrected!
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 682
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Travel,
WHOA!!!!! Slow down there buddy. Lets clear a couple things up. First of all remember what they say happens when you ASS U ME anything. The fact that you for some reason took things so personally is a bit revealing when it comes to your personality.
While I like to remind myself that I like most people have my short comings, arrogance would not be one that would rank high on the list. And as far as looking for pats on the back goes, comments like "I was doing this before" and "I wish I had a dime" etc. sounds like a little looking for something to me. 
The ugly tone of your post is a prime example of the type of behavior I mentioned when it comes to how many (notice I did noy say all ) hounds people approach each other. 
You do not need to take my word all you have to do is read the posts that you find on the beagle sites. Please take some time and see what I mean. This is how we are supposed to treat each other ? 
When we act this way we are our own worse enemy. If you could accuse me of anything it might be that I can become to PREACHY at times. And again if you go back and read any of my past posts I would be shocked if ever was one that was mean spirited or arrogant. As far as your personal dealings with diabetes in the family I am truly sorry. It just so happens that I am a Registered Nurse and have been a nurse fo 15 years and know all to well the pressures of illness in ones family. The fact that it is your child only makes it worse and certainly is a good reason to support the use of animals in research. I too delt with an ill child of my own (eldest son) and he passed 9 years ago. So you see aside from hounds we share similar lives. That is and always has been my point, as people, we all share much more than we differ and that we need to realize that fact in our dealings with each other. I stand by my original post when it comes to the reasons more people do not become more involved. It is after all my opinion based on m own personal experiences and you may have had other expriences. I only know that I see fewer and fewer young people getting involved in outdoors sports and even fewer taking up the political cause. Our own F&G club as well as couty federations are starving for young people to replace those that are literally at an age where they are passing on to heaven with no one to take their place. As I mentioned life has dictated that I myself have had to back off and I feel a twinge of guilt that someone else has to pick up my slack for awhile. Arrogant....nah you got me pegged wrong, thankfully. But as an interesting side note...I do think I have a pretty good understanding of peoples behaviors. For the past several years I have been working as a Psychiatric nurse and as a matter of fact was a 2001 New York State Employee of the year in Adolescent mental health. I currently work in the same field but with an adult population. And when it comes to the meat industry, again, perhaps we have some parallel life experience. My wife and I also own an Ice Cream / BBQ place and Lord knows we sell lots of meat!!!! 
My goodness we're kindred spirits! Sorry if you took things the wrong way Travel. But as I said.......Arrogant.....nah! Maybe misunderstood!
Peace,
NYH
WHOA!!!!! Slow down there buddy. Lets clear a couple things up. First of all remember what they say happens when you ASS U ME anything. The fact that you for some reason took things so personally is a bit revealing when it comes to your personality.
While I like to remind myself that I like most people have my short comings, arrogance would not be one that would rank high on the list. And as far as looking for pats on the back goes, comments like "I was doing this before" and "I wish I had a dime" etc. sounds like a little looking for something to me. The ugly tone of your post is a prime example of the type of behavior I mentioned when it comes to how many (notice I did noy say all ) hounds people approach each other. You do not need to take my word all you have to do is read the posts that you find on the beagle sites. Please take some time and see what I mean. This is how we are supposed to treat each other ? When we act this way we are our own worse enemy. If you could accuse me of anything it might be that I can become to PREACHY at times. And again if you go back and read any of my past posts I would be shocked if ever was one that was mean spirited or arrogant. As far as your personal dealings with diabetes in the family I am truly sorry. It just so happens that I am a Registered Nurse and have been a nurse fo 15 years and know all to well the pressures of illness in ones family. The fact that it is your child only makes it worse and certainly is a good reason to support the use of animals in research. I too delt with an ill child of my own (eldest son) and he passed 9 years ago. So you see aside from hounds we share similar lives. That is and always has been my point, as people, we all share much more than we differ and that we need to realize that fact in our dealings with each other. I stand by my original post when it comes to the reasons more people do not become more involved. It is after all my opinion based on m own personal experiences and you may have had other expriences. I only know that I see fewer and fewer young people getting involved in outdoors sports and even fewer taking up the political cause. Our own F&G club as well as couty federations are starving for young people to replace those that are literally at an age where they are passing on to heaven with no one to take their place. As I mentioned life has dictated that I myself have had to back off and I feel a twinge of guilt that someone else has to pick up my slack for awhile. Arrogant....nah you got me pegged wrong, thankfully. But as an interesting side note...I do think I have a pretty good understanding of peoples behaviors. For the past several years I have been working as a Psychiatric nurse and as a matter of fact was a 2001 New York State Employee of the year in Adolescent mental health. I currently work in the same field but with an adult population. And when it comes to the meat industry, again, perhaps we have some parallel life experience. My wife and I also own an Ice Cream / BBQ place and Lord knows we sell lots of meat!!!! My goodness we're kindred spirits! Sorry if you took things the wrong way Travel. But as I said.......Arrogant.....nah! Maybe misunderstood!Peace,
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 682
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Travel,
And before I call it a night one other thing. When it comes to trapping I also refused to allow our local animal rights group to use my daughters mini daschund as their poster child. This after some slob that thinks he was a trapper placed traps on our farm without permission. And then caught her pup and left it for a week without checking his traps. When he was finally released and the dog did get home it was emaciated and its right hind leg was rotted and hanging by a thread. At 11:30 at night I had to take the dog to the vet with my kids in tears as they worried he would die. It cost me a couple hundred dollars, alot of sadness and an amputated right leg at the hip for her pup. While I may not be a fan of trapping as a result and will never allow it on my farm, I still will defend others right to do it by not openly speaking against it. Despite the overwhelming desire to do so! I realize that it was not a true trapper but was in fact as I said before a slob who did not check his traps that were placed on my property. And even when he discovered his error left it for me to deal with rather than fess up. I will still stick up for trappers as best I can because if they go who will be next?
And now Goodnite
NYH
And before I call it a night one other thing. When it comes to trapping I also refused to allow our local animal rights group to use my daughters mini daschund as their poster child. This after some slob that thinks he was a trapper placed traps on our farm without permission. And then caught her pup and left it for a week without checking his traps. When he was finally released and the dog did get home it was emaciated and its right hind leg was rotted and hanging by a thread. At 11:30 at night I had to take the dog to the vet with my kids in tears as they worried he would die. It cost me a couple hundred dollars, alot of sadness and an amputated right leg at the hip for her pup. While I may not be a fan of trapping as a result and will never allow it on my farm, I still will defend others right to do it by not openly speaking against it. Despite the overwhelming desire to do so! I realize that it was not a true trapper but was in fact as I said before a slob who did not check his traps that were placed on my property. And even when he discovered his error left it for me to deal with rather than fess up. I will still stick up for trappers as best I can because if they go who will be next?
And now Goodnite
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
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jackrabbit
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:10 pm
- Location: statewide, Indiana
- Contact:
antis must love this thread
lets not forget one big factor here fellows we are all sportsmen. we have our differances, yet we must stick together. the antis will have a party just reading this thread. bob kane is right . there is way to much apathy amongst our ranks. and its that way in all areas of outdoor sports. i have a friend that fought for and saved indiana bass tournament fishing on lake wawasee. he told me that he had 1000 bass fishing buddies that he couldnt get out of their boats long enough to go to dnr meetings to support him. i found the same problem when we were fighting dnr over the salamonie deal. there are a lot of good, hard working beaglers out there that are not happy with the way things are going in indiana. and ill bet the farm that its that way all over the country. a large part of it is simply that we dont know what to do, or how to do it. many times we complain to each other because there just doenst seem to be a way we can make a differance. What bob is trying to tell you is that YES we can make a differance. everyone doesnt have to go to front and do the fighting, not everyone is going to talk to the state dnr folks or do the research, and some wont even attend meetings to work out plans, but everyone can help by speaking up and supporting those that are willing to do the fighting. bob is one of those guys. he and i dont always see eye to eye, but thats ok..... we are both on the same side and bob if there is anything i can do to help that im not seeing.... let me know.
there really is not much room for attacking from within the ranks now guys. how about we not let hurt feelings get in the way of supporting and defending our hunting heritage. each and everyone of us are needed to work together.
Bob, ive had some time to see inside dnrs warped mind now... let me take this time to apologize for being so bull headed in the past.
jackrabbit
there really is not much room for attacking from within the ranks now guys. how about we not let hurt feelings get in the way of supporting and defending our hunting heritage. each and everyone of us are needed to work together.
Bob, ive had some time to see inside dnrs warped mind now... let me take this time to apologize for being so bull headed in the past.
jackrabbit
I AM GLAD THAT THERE ARE BOB KANES OUT THERE
i first ran into bob's posts on a retriever list that i am on. i am one of the lucky people who has both a retriever and beagles, as i hunt ducks and rabbits down here southeast of old new orleans. anyway, i was impressed then and i am impressed now with bob's drive and his desire to work for rights which many of us take for granted. i know that the anti's are motivated people, way more motivated than many of us sportsmen, and i am coming to believe more and more every day that we will have a battle on our hands for as long as we live. this is not one that is going to go away. bob, and other bobs have served as the front line in this war and i am grateful for it.
i also think it is interesting what bob said about dog guys, that retriever people are more organized than hound people. i don't know what that says, but it is interesting.
bob, i hope that you continue to be there and i hope that i will be able to spend more time and effort in working in this area. i think that it is needed now more than ever. the anti's work in all areas and are willing to take 10 defeats so that they can gain 1 victory. those small victories are never given back. i see that clearly now, having friends down here who are involved with roosters. theirs is a losing cause, as even some sportsmen vote with anti's on this. if we all stuck together they couldn't make any inroads, but we are not united. we must protect our way of life.
i also think it is interesting what bob said about dog guys, that retriever people are more organized than hound people. i don't know what that says, but it is interesting.
bob, i hope that you continue to be there and i hope that i will be able to spend more time and effort in working in this area. i think that it is needed now more than ever. the anti's work in all areas and are willing to take 10 defeats so that they can gain 1 victory. those small victories are never given back. i see that clearly now, having friends down here who are involved with roosters. theirs is a losing cause, as even some sportsmen vote with anti's on this. if we all stuck together they couldn't make any inroads, but we are not united. we must protect our way of life.
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dosgris,
Thanks for the kind atta boy and pertinent comments about needing to stay together for this very long fight. Defeating the California AB 342 hound hunting ban was both huge and gratifying. You can almost imagine the animal rigtists huddling together, trying to decide what to try next.
If you didn't receive a private email from me over the weekend on supporting Louisiana's Right to Hunt, Fish and Trap bill, drop me a line at bobkane@saova.org I had two cajun beaglers tell me "unsubscribe" and I'd like to build SAOVA's LA elist some.
Best wishes,
Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org
Thanks for the kind atta boy and pertinent comments about needing to stay together for this very long fight. Defeating the California AB 342 hound hunting ban was both huge and gratifying. You can almost imagine the animal rigtists huddling together, trying to decide what to try next.
If you didn't receive a private email from me over the weekend on supporting Louisiana's Right to Hunt, Fish and Trap bill, drop me a line at bobkane@saova.org I had two cajun beaglers tell me "unsubscribe" and I'd like to build SAOVA's LA elist some.
Best wishes,
Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org