Is it just me or is foot over rated?

[Alabama John]

Big,

hope I didn't come across wrong. Didn't mean to, just trying to honestly answer your question.

Bottom line is it depends on your hunting territory and what you like to see that determines what speed you prefer. Or, if you trial, what format you want to compete in. There was a time all of my friends and I all competed in the AKC Brace trials and you probably have never seen closer to the track running than that.The Brace dogs would make any other format look wild and crazy. Speed was and still is their number one NO NO.

You asked a good question and its discussed around folks while dogs are running every time we get together.

Interesting the thing that is asked about most often when a pack is running is "what dog is that" when one that has an outstanding mouth opens and drowns out the others. I would say that is number one.

Speed? No one running with others wants their dogs to be the last to cross the road. WE are all competitive in one way or the other. No one wants their dogs to be running behind, heads up, following a faster dog even if its medium speed.

[bigcfromrbc]

That is true and you didn't John. I always judge my dogs off more then who is first on a track. Is mine knocking down brush with their tails and working scent while trying to find the rabbit, did they over run the track, and who grabbed it in the lose? I don't have the best hounds. I know that. Mine do hunt the woods down, have desire so they go all day with no quit, and I've seen some real intelligent stuff done by them. Are they first on a track? Depends who I'm hunting or running with that day. Even against faster hounds they've had the front, but it doesn't tear me up when they get smoked. I guess I'm not kennel blind lol

[Ron Conroe]

Run what you like, just remember a dragster can do 300 mph but it can't turn.

[KPrice]

Run what you like, just remember a dragster can do 300 mph but it can't turn.

Well said. Speed is fine if it can be controlled. But there a lot of folks out there that just like to sit on the tailgate and see what dog comes out in front, not paying any attention to what's happening in the rest of the race.

[bigcfromrbc]

Run what you like, just remember a dragster can do 300 mph but it can't turn.

Well said. Speed is fine if it can be controlled. But there a lot of folks out there that just like to sit on the tailgate and see what dog comes out in front, not paying any attention to what's happening in the rest of the race.

I see a lot of that. To me how they run the line and do in the check area is really important.

[retired4now740]

If a pitcher throws 100 MPH but is not accurate, can't throw a strike, he is no good. A Beagle that can fly but can't keep the track is in the same boat!

[rabbitatfarm]

I'm just curious on the justification of foot. I know everyone ranks certain qualities over others, but foot seems to be real high up. Glad no one thinks I was bad mouthing a fast hound. Just trying to have some good conversation and input.

Its easier to judge in a Trial situation, if you give the lead dog most of the credit.
It takes too long to judge hunt, so therefore in order to run a trial in a time frame, its not judged.
If fast wild dogs lose a rabbit, then the gallery can always jump them another one.

Newt;

Who would you give credit to if not the lead dog on the track? Or are you saying a fast dog might be out front but not have the track? Not saying much for the others in the cast if they're following.
A trial lasts for an hour. I see a lot of guys doing a lot of running to try to stay with the dogs, so I would call that judging.
If the gallery jumps a rabbit, the dogs would have to go from the first check if the judge decided to use that rabbit. Not really sure what you are saying or the point you are trying to make.

Larry

[bigcfromrbc]

Newt might be suggesting that there are dogs that do more cutting, and racing with the other dogs instead of being focused on the track so it can run the rabbit. I had a rough running, cutting machine. He did hunt hard for me. He just swing, cut, and wanted the front no matter what. To me that's not running the track and more racing other hounds.

[sgc]

It amazes me how many dogs I see for sale out here that say "fast" as part of the description. This seems to say that what people want are fast dogs.

[Newt]

[quote="rabbitatfarm"
Newt;

Who would you give credit to if not the lead dog on the track? Or are you saying a fast dog might be out front but not have the track? Not saying much for the others in the cast if they're following.
A trial lasts for an hour. I see a lot of guys doing a lot of running to try to stay with the dogs, so I would call that judging.
If the gallery jumps a rabbit, the dogs would have to go from the first check if the judge decided to use that rabbit. Not really sure what you are saying or the point you are trying to make.

Larry[/quote]

I believe the same rule book is used to judge Mid West and UBGF. One federation chooses to emphasize speed and the other puts emphasis on line control.

You got it, if speed is the criteria then the lead dog gets the score. If line control is the criteria then pick up the lead dog.

If you just run for fun then long races and accounting for the rabbit is the criteria.
If you run for a ribbon, then losing a rabbit is ok, someone will jump another. If not the dogs will be judged on hunt? At a Trial, somebody has to win first, second, third, fourth, even when there is no deserving hound on that day.

That is just my opinion, run what you like and enjoy.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I really hate it when some old guy gets on here and tells you about how long he's been running dogs and how much experience he has................So I'll try to not do that.
I'm 64 and having been running hounds for the past 50 years.Not just beagles but just about all game chaseable.I started with the beagles,had a 21 year love affair with the coon hounds and in-between hunted with a bear pack,cat hunted on snow,have run fox/coyote in the big pens,went to the woods with the world champion squirrel dog,corresponded for years with several lion hunters in Montana about their hounds and hunts and had more deer chases and treed more possum and porcupines than I could begin to remember!! Am I starting to sound like one of those old guys yet?
People talk about "foot" like it was the curse of beagling.I can tell from the comments that always arise when this subject comes up that folks feel that any hound that is considered"fast" is so full of every known fault that he can't possibly run a rabbit,keep it going or bring it around to the gun, ["can't keep it going for more than 10 minutes,stands around at losses,can't jump rabbits,can't make the turns,isn't accurate,cuts,slashes,etc."].PLEASE GENTLEMEN!
I LOVE FOOT! Doesn't mean I ignore all the others aspects of a beagle's ability to pursue a rabbit .But,how you're hounds run is a personal choice and I'm just NOT going to have slow dogs no matter what game I'm chasing.I'm just not.
I want hounds that run a track not just follow one.Only in beagle hounds do I hear all this talk about "foot" being a negative and so many attribute a multitude of faults to the hound that can get up on his game and drive it relentlessly.Think about it,the hounds that can do this would not be able to run like that if they were all as totally faulty as some believe.Only in beagling do we talk about "oh,he's too rough,he's too fast,he's running too much rabbit,he needs to slow down,he's blowing a hole in the ground,wish he was more conservative"etc.
Never heard any bear hunters say"wish they'd take longer putting that bear in the tree,they pushed him too fast,or a mid-winter cat hunter pray that it would take longer for ole Jack to bring that big tom out of the swamp so he could freeze longer on his stand,or a coonhunter say that he'd rather listen to some old potlicker trail up and down the creek all evening before he settles on a tree than have that hound that got struck,drove his game and had the meat in the tree.The fox hunters always talk about the two or three front runners that are carrying the pack all night and those tail enders go elsewhere.
Heck, even deer dogs better be able to crank it up in my mind.Yet I've seen beagles of the type that don't even push a deer any faster than this old man can run. Shoot,if a hound can't rock and roll when they're running a deer I sure want something with more "foot".Seems like it's only the beaglers that have this fast VS slow thing going on.
I just got back from spending 3 weeks running hare in Maine,New Hampshire and Vermont.I would say that myself and the three other guy's dogs all fall into that "fast"dog category.
Yet we had numerous 1-2 hour runs of continous pounding that some were virtually check free and had a couple of runs that went 2 1/2 hours sounding like one constant deer race.
Those guys all have GPS trackers and you can see on the screen as the hounds fade out of hearing at 800-1000 yards then come screaming back with the hare streaking by and hounds running flat out and not far behind it.
Bob Ferranti and I stood in the pouring rain in New Hampshire the last day I got to hunt and never moved and over the next 1 3/4 hours had probably the best run of my trip.The hare crossed there eight times before I shot him.Those five hounds ran that hare absolutely flat out the entire time running about as fast as a beagle can get through the woods and never checked up for more than 20-30 seconds.That one race on the GPS said they covered eight miles at about five miles an hour.That's picking em up and putting em down!!
Sure there are plenty of faulty"fast" dogs probably only equaled by the number of faulty "slow" dogs that can't or because of their breeding won't get up on their game.
Anyways,to say all that only to say that "ya,I like foot.In any kind of hound I run on any kind of game".
A good,fast hound that can can get up on it's game and push it relentlessly is a thing of beauty.And yes beauty is in the eye of the beer holder but they really do exist!!!

[HAREHOUND]

very good post dana and i am on the same page. i like a fast dog, and fast does not always = faulty. some of the best dogs i have ever seen a to z have also been some of the fastest. i guess i am saying that fast can be a bad thing but it sure doesn't have to be.

[mybeagles]

Everyone claims to have the fast dog that "does it the right way", but go witness a field trial and you will see enough to make a rabbit Hunter sick.

That being said, a fast hound with control is a pleasure to watch. Everyone with fast hounds think they have a kennel full of them but truth is they are very rare, some may even say once in a lifetime.

Most will tell you they are a rabbit Hunters first and foremost but that's a lie. No rabbit Hunter would tolerate a dog so rough it never circles a rabbit.

As John stated where you live is a factor.

[bigcfromrbc]

I can't disagree with what you've said Shady Grove Beagles. I don't mind a dog running a track quickly as long as they are on the rabbit. I had a beagle I got rid of cause he would cut to the front. In a lose he would swing out wide to try and grab it first. Sometime's he look like a champ, and sometimes he wouldn't. He loved the front, and if there was a dog as equally fast he would get real rough. I sold him.

I've got two gyps. Around the same age. The grade gyp same is the faster of the two out in the open. Sam has good foot. Ann is slower then Sam in the open. Yet when it comes to running a track Ann is faster. Why? I think she's smarter. Both are hard hunters, and have tons of desire. Yet Ann does a good job at running the track, and picking up it up on a lose. Now don't get me wrong. There are times that Sam is just on it good, but she gets hung up in the check. I'll own both till they die here.

To me foot doesn't come into play till intelligence is seen. A dog that makes less mistakes on the track is going to be faster regardless of who is faster in a foot race. Unless it's one of those dogs that you can walk with while it runs a track lol That's not the point though. I've seen dogs that are fast, but smart enough to gear down and hit the turn. I've seen dogs that are fast, and over run a track 50 yards.

My whole question is how do you justify a dog that is fast, but makes mistakes versus one that may not be as fast yet does less mistakes? That's intelligence to me which should be rated higher then foot.

[fulcount]

Bob Sternloff of Starleaf Fame said it best
many years ago 'Speed With Control" makes the best hound
The speed thing has been an ongoing discussion for as
long as beagles have been running
John O