The American Beagler Forum

im a diehard linebreeder of BRAMLETT bred dogs and a lot of the crosses i am making have been 4th and 5th generation stuff out of my kennel (BLACKDIRT BEAGLES) that all go back to the bramlett stuff. my question is when is it considered proper to refer to this as my line? im not trying to take away from the original line either as i think that don bramlett would approve of the crosses i am making and the dogs i keep, just wandering what most of you think about this. can you call a line yours after 3 generations of linebreeding? or 4 or 5? what do you think?

I have always been told 4 generations.

You can breed anything out of a line in 4 generations. So if you can do that, sounds to me like you have a line that you can call yours.

I personally think it is funny when people are looking more than 3 generations back on pedigrees.

I have been told by a good friend of mine that We have our line already because we made the decision of what we are breeding. The outcross we made came from him but he insist it is our line. When I say the outcross we made it would be a pup from his sire and another friend's dam that we bred back to another male he has and he still insist that it is our line. I say we because my buddy and I are kennelled together. You may not agree that this is our line but he is dead set that it is. I just laugh and tell him that when they see us drop our dogs down they associate the dogs with him and not us. It does not really matter to me because when it is time to go shoot some bunnies they are definitely our dogs and that is what counts. cya, Paul

i dont see how you could consider it your line,if your continually breeding bramlett to bramlett.i would think that to call a line yours,you would have to have created that line,

Blackdirt
When you breed a dog from someone's line to a dog from someone elses line then the puppies are neither the one line or the other. They are your line as you made the breeding by mixing lines to suit yourself.
Go back on any line and see where they did just as I said and started their own line with their own kennel name.
The number of generations does not matter for what would you call the first generation? Half ------ and half ------ and have a kennel name that included both sire and dam's kennel names? It gets silly doesn't it.

The first generation you chose to mix line breed should have your kennel name!

Secondly:

I woiuldn't buy a pup that was out of more than one line if the pup already had anothers kennel name registered on it. If it is not a one line pup, it will have my kennel name as it is of mixed kennels that I approved of the mix even if I bought it and didn't breed it myself.

Paul, I agree with your buddy. When you are outcrossing..good or bad, its your line! Think about it this way......if all them dogs would have turned out to be deer running culls or housepets, then the stud owner wouldnt want it to be his line.....so dont give them all the credit when they turn out great The fact is you guys put a lot of time in your pups and now you're reaping the rewards. I agree with Jesse....it takes 2 to make a dog

Now as far as line breeding.....I dont think its possible. This is only my opinion. Lets say you have a dog that is true Branko, and by that I mean from Branko top and bottom and you breed her back into a dog from Branko....then you take and keep breeding to true Branko dogs, you havnt created a line.....you have progressed the Branko line. In my opinion for it to be your line you have to have an outcross at some point, and thus creating "your" line.

On the same hand....I think a man who has bred the same line of dogs for 4-5-6 generations, as Brian has with the Bramlett dogs, is more than deserving of your name being on it.

So I dont know what I think about this.....never had thought about it before a few minutes ago. I dont care whos name is on them....as long as they can run a rabbit. Will be interesting to see others opinions.

Take care everyone,
Randy

I called Branko years ago, I was interested in breeding to Heli-Prop. It didn't happen, but in our conversation Branko asked what kind of breeding I had in my pen. Well i told him that I had Patch and Snchapp's bred hounds. He told me that he liked Snchapp's breeding, but there hasn't been a Patch hound since Randell quit breeding and it isn't a Branko hound if it didn't come from his yard. I like Patch hounds, but the men I have talked to around the country seem to have different style hounds. There was a man by the name of Mike Yates that bred Patch hounds, but it generally accepted that there is a Yate's line. I'm not online very often, but over the last five years I've read enough of your to believe you have established your own line. You seem to be linebreeding a certain type of hound that you are very happy with, I imagine you will continue to do so for years. If you listen to some crotchity types you'll always be breeding Bramlett dogs. As many ways as they can interpret the AKC rulebook how can you have a RULE for something that there is no rule for. Call it your line when you feel it is, if enough people buy them and like them you will have a public that agrees with you. If not it doesn't make you wrong, it just means people aren't giving you your due.

Anonymous wrote:i dont see how you could consider it your line,if your continually breeding bramlett to bramlett.i would think that to call a line yours,you would have to have created that line,

According to the "guests" definition, then they should all be God's line since he is the one that created the beagle.

I have a male that has Taylor's Sock it to me as his grandpa once and his great grandpa twice. In a year or so I will probably breed him to at least one of my gyps that have Sock it to me as their great grandpa, great great grandpa and great, great, great grandpa. Will this be a Sock it to me line? I see a whole bunch of other dogs in that 7 generation pedigree.
Maybe I should call it the IFC Mt. Zion Pete line, since many go back to him as well. I could also call them the Hoppy Acres line as many of the dogs have this too.
Shoot, I don't know the answer. Good question though, Brian.

Bob,
You know why there is considered to be a Yates line of Patch. The Patch(as they were from Willet) did not suite Mr. Yates. He wanted hard hitting all day rabbit hounds, but started with hare hounds from Randall, that had all the qualities Randall bred for, of 60 years.
Mike bred from these but selected from their offspring those that displayed any of the varied desired qualities "he" was breeding for, that best suited "his" needs. These were then bred together to set the colour or the change "he" wanted, from the orginal picture that Randall had painted for the last 60 years.
After 29 years of breeding and selection to his standard, he was still known as "The Patch Man of the South", but no doubt the qualities he instilled in his hounds for the cottontail/swamper of the South, were different than what Randall bred for or required, in his hare hounds of the Northern Adirondacks.
It's a fine edge to walk, for if one has hounds from a breeder and makes the right selection on the individuals used in a mating, the orginal breeder has no problem keeping his name on the hounds. But, on the other hand, if the wrong individually are used and poor results are the product, the orginal breeder would rather his name be dropped, and the individual take the blame. The knife also cuts the other way, in that the work and foundation that was laid by the orginal breeder, is built upon by one who has taken up the line later and he wants to claim credit for what is produced, when the fact is, he is only breeding hounds and reproducing the work that was done before him.
I think to have your own line, the hounds produced must show a marked distinction about them, and that distinction is so inbred that it is reproduced in the majority of the offspring. In other words, the hounds should have your fingerprint upon them...Patch

It is your line with the first cross. I have talked to alot of breeders and they dont want there kennel name on other peoples breedings. The crossess you decide and make are your dogs. I have dogs based strong in Northway and Kingswood Trex obtained thru the hard work of Ky Mtn Kennels and Pine Mt. Kennels. When I make the crossess they will be my crossess. I do give credit though and will say that my line is based on the hounds and kennels that from there background though. Every breeder from the history of beagling got there start from somewhere. Note: When I buy a pup from a kennel as a courtesy I always give them the kennel name or at least ask for permission. I have found that it goes either way. If it is someone that knows me they usually want me to and have told me that they dont really care either way. Using a kennel name can go good or bad alot depends on how the pups are trained.

Maybe we need to define what a "line of hounds" is.
I agree the first crosses you make, makes you the breeder. And, the resulting litter is "your hounds". But, that is far from having your own line of hounds, by my definition...Patch

I personally think maybe we take too much credit for some things anyhow.....it's all about the dogs, not us. My line, your line, what does it really matter anyhow? A good hound is a good hound. If you bred the dog, your name stays on the line of the "breeder" on the registration papers anyhow, no matter how many times the dog is sold and bought throughout it's lifetime. I have a kennel name here, but if I sell a puppy to someone, I think they have the right to name it whatever they want. My name will remain on the breeder line regardless.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I think we worry too much over minute details when it really boils down to THE DOG!

I have to disagree. The work and dedication it takes to build/clean up and develop a strain of hounds is a "big thing". It's what makes a man on his death bed worry of what will become of his hounds and will they be kept as a family...
Now, if you believe breeding is all a crapshoot anyway, this will mean nothing to you. But, If you are a believer in the absolute powers of heredity, it will make you shiver at the thought of those who think this way.
Your right Darrin, Randall wasn't worried about his name on the hounds, but only about the "family" he had created, or as you say, it was all about the hounds...Patch

John is right, once you make a decission on a cross and make it then it's your line. If the breeders of the sire and dam owned them they most likely would not make the same cross you did therefore it becomes your line. Lots of people use different lines starting off and once they make a cross,even thought it's from someone else's line of dogs it is no longer their stock of dogs because the decission to make the cross is not by them. Everyone has to start somewhere and the first cross is the start. Now whether the person continues to keep the new line going is a different matter altogether.

The first cross of 2 lines is nothing more than a "start". It could be a total outcross of different type, that none of the resulting litter are anything alike or have not even the slightest chance of reproducing what they are.
A line, is a family of related hounds with like qualities that can reproduce the same in a large percentage of the offspring when bred together. It has to be built to a standard and become set to be reproduced in the offspring to be called a line... Patch