Soloing a dog

NorWester1 · Post by **NorWester1** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:26 pm

So your argument is that soloing is a moral issue ?

JJWI · Post by **JJWI** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:27 pm

I never understood how you could fully see what a dog is doing, or needs work on without making them run on their own. I have seen too many times guys would have a dog that looked like a million bucks in a pack or with another dog. But you take that dog out on its own and it just stood by your feet. If a dog doesn't have the desire to get in the woods get jumped and run on its' own, why would I want that dogs genetics in any of my future crosses?

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:34 pm

Norwester,

I understand the logic of viewing it as a matter of natural selection, but I don't see this harsh selection process consistently producing any better. If that thought process was accurate the "pack only" process would dominate the competition but it's seems to be even or possibly tilted the other way.

I don't advocate solo time for dogs that need it to keep them from being crazy wild....I like it because it allows them to mature and develop composure at a faster pace and ultimately contribute more to a pack.

I prefer to start pups young as possible and let them mature into being pack ready. What age do you start packing a dog in?

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:46 pm

Norwester, it's not a moral issue. But how can you say your training dogs and bringing out the best of a pups inherited traits when that's all you do is throw it into a pack. I don't believe in soloing all the time, I do believe in soloing pups often after they have started well. It forces them to do there own work and they come along quicker. After that sometimes soloing an over competitive dog can actually hurt due to the fact that they get used to always having the line to themselves. I do solo older pups at times to evaluate if they can get it done on there own, and at times I'll brace a young dog with an older good running dog just to give it a deferent running scene. I rarely solo my older dogs . I to do not have the time too solo all my dogs all the time and that is why I only keep a hand full of dogs and only start and train one or two pups at a time. But I like to evaluate a pup and see what it needs and I think most are open minded and will do both pack, brace and solo. If you only pack and want throw a pup in the pack and give it no time on its own that's ok too but I just disagree when we tell others who ask questions on this board that soloing a young dog is a waste of time. That's just my opinion....dh

Shady Grove Beagles · Post by **Shady Grove Beagles** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:04 pm

Soloing a dog. I believe a young dog can benefit greatly from soloing. It can help with their self confidence and independence. I also believe that soloing an older hound can help them focus/concentrate on their work to better present themselves to the critical eye of a judge at a trial. That being said, I seldom do it. I just never had much interest in running a single hound.
I never keep more than three to five hounds and enjoy running them as a pack. I am primarily a gun hunter and pleasure-runner that seldom trials. I enjoy the music of a hard running pack in full chorus.
My small line-bred pack is very consistent in their traits and abilities. Even so, you will always have one that shines more than another. One may be a superior jump dog, another may have the best nose, still another gets most of the checks, and yet another has a tad more foot. It is my desire that these traits are interchangeable throughout the pack during a race.
My four females range in age from 8 months to 8 years. They all were started in the pack at around six months old. EVERY ONE of them can, and does, run their own rabbit and contribute. It goes without saying that every hound must contribute, or they don’t stay here. I run year round and the opportunity for a dog to run its own rabbit arises frequently. During split races, etc. that single hound has no problem running solo.
I have always felt that something was amiss when I had to put a lot of individual time into one hound before it could do what it was bred to do, and what its mother, grandmother, half-sister, cousin was doing. Some say this puts too much pressure on a young dog, and this may be true. You all have to know your own dogs. The cream will either come to the top----or it won’t. The young dog needs to be a quick study and show progress, getting with the program, or they won’t stay here.
I think it is crazy when guys say that an experienced houndsman can’t tell what his hound is doing when run in a pack. Get off the tailgate and go watch! When I ran coon dogs, an old timer once told me, “If you want to kill coons, take one dog. If you want to hear the music, take several”. I think it is the same with beagles. Most would agree that a dog running solo is smoother, has fewer checks/losses than when in a pack.
JMHO.

NorWester1 · Post by **NorWester1** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:07 pm

JJWI wrote,

I never understood how you could fully see what a dog is doing, or needs work on without making them run on their own. I have seen too many times guys would have a dog that looked like a million bucks in a pack or with another dog. But you take that dog out on its own and it just stood by your feet. If a dog doesn't have the desire to get in the woods get jumped and run on its' own, why would I want that dogs genetics in any of my future crosses?

You mean to say that if you ran the same group of dogs every day for years you would not know who is doing what in there? I'm as lost as you are I guess in that I don't understand how, if you are watching the hare go by and the dogs go by after it how you can't tell what is going on especially seeing it day after day after day....

Mybeagles wrote,

I understand the logic of viewing it as a matter of natural selection, but I don't see this harsh selection process consistently producing any better. If that thought process was accurate the "pack only" process would dominate the competition but it's seems to be even or possibly tilted the other way.

I don't advocate solo time for dogs that need it to keep them from being crazy wild....I like it because it allows them to mature and develop composure at a faster pace and ultimately contribute more to a pack.

I prefer to start pups young as possible and let them mature into being pack ready. What age do you start packing a dog in?

The process is anything but "natural" but I understand what you mean.

Now as far as "if that thought process was accurate the pack only process would dominate the competition but it seems to be even or possibly tilted the other way."

I can only assume you are referring to trialing and if that is the case I'm probably the wrong guy to ask....never been to trial much less entered one and have no plans to either.
However, it would seem to me that trials are events who's merits and goal is based on individual achievement. This being the case everyone who enters a dog in a trial is doing everything in their power to ensure their dog stands out.
So it would seem to me as a casual observer a fellow solos his dog in an attempt to hone those independant skills with the only concern of whether the hound can handle pressure being on trial day as the dog can go back to soloing once that is done.
This being the case one can still consistently read about how hounds have to be settled down after a trial, by you guessed it....soloing.
This would indicate to me that there is still a real difficulty with a hounds faults being exposed by pack pressure despite all this soloing.
So it would appear that regardless of how much a hound gets soloed.....pack him for any amount of time and all that effort goes out the window anyway.
interesting that the late Terry McBride related to me that, even though he continually tried he had never seen one instance where soloing solved any pack related faults in an individual hound over the long run.
Again and as far as trials go.....you should ask JCM ....seriously, this guy knows his sh*t.

Now my logic with my own situation is simply by selecting those dogs that don't need to be soloed, that won't "blow up" from pack pressure I'm headed down the path to where someday it will know longer be an issue at all.
So far there is enough positive results that I will certainly continue on in this direction.

You asked at what age I pack my pups? My pups are packed right from the moment they start

Here's a video from last summer.....9 week old pups running their first hare (or trying to). They'd actually started calling on track at about 7 weeks old.
If you listen carefully you can hear them get a check after a loss....they ran for about 15 minutes if I remember correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFqiMseLQAA

Here they are a little older again on a wild snowshoe hare......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9fim4f_vA

and again a little older....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHbCgbA0v-U

and here they are into December of this winter.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PXGbp2bOk

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:26 pm

I think Soloing is a tool. It allows a young dog to progress quicker so your not holding onto a pup for two years before you decide it's not for you. Norwester1 I don't a agree that you can actually see all of what a dog is doing by watching it go by in a pack on a hare. I've seen plenty of dogs look good in a pack or sound good when you hear them claiming a check. That same dog can be the one causing the check. I've seen what thought were great looking dogs in a pack but run them solo and they can't circle a rabbit. That's because in a pack they relying on the pack mates.

NorWester1 · Post by **NorWester1** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:38 pm

Deerhost, what can I say....you like soloing....all the power to you. Knock yourself out. I couldn't care less what you do, that's your business and if thats the way you like it, good for you.
As for what you believe, i don't know what to say to that....if you cant have any more than one dog in there to KNOW what is going on then that's just the way it is.....but it's not like that for everyone. Sorry.

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:41 pm

This is a pup I started very youg with her mom. After she started I soloed her 6 or 7 seven times over the course of two weeks. By the 3rd week at less then six months old you could gun her solo and shoot plenty of rabbits. In the video she circled the rabbit twice the only check was right in front of me when she over ran it a little. The Pups Ive just thrown in the pack couldn't run a rabbit that way in 9 months. I will say some pups I have started that ran well and were independent in the pack I barely ever soloed except to make sure they weren't relying on the older dogs. This pup I felt was talented but needed a little solo time for her too come along....Thats all about Im going to say on the subject. Ill just read noww...LOL!

http://s150.photobucket.com/user/deerho ... 2.mp4.html

This next video is another pup also very young 4 1/2 months old with a little solo work.

http://s150.photobucket.com/user/deerho ... 2.mp4.html

I have not posted any videos lately because I have gotten tired of videoing But I believe soloing makes them turn on faster.

John Way · Post by **John Way** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:44 pm

[quote][/quote]
Re: Soloing a dog
by deerhost » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:41 pm
What kind of beaglers are we if the only tool we have is to throw a pup into a pack and watch it either sink or swim?.....just sayin......dh
deerhost

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Deerfucius , The superior man , when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. ( in responses )
I like your common sense post!!! Hope to c u at Blue Ridge derby trial in May. I know Andy P will read this. I can see his smile and hear his laugh.

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:48 pm

Thankyou and See you soon john......................dh.

Budd · Post by **Budd** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:51 pm

How in the world do LP judges pick 5 dogs out of 30 or more to make the bench in sometimes only a few hours? They must pull names out of a hat because according to some it is not possible to evaluate more then a brace?

JJWI · Post by **JJWI** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:39 pm

Budd wrote:How in the world do LP judges pick 5 dogs out of 30 or more to make the bench in sometimes only a few hours? They must pull names out of a hat because according to some it is not possible to evaluate more then a brace?

The same way you pick and choose which dogs stick around in your pack. The pick up the ones that are not accomplishing anything, causing disruptions, or displaying faults that won't make them advance in placement. But I think you already knew that answer Budd.
As far as knowing what is going on in the race after watching my dogs after a while, believe me I know. I am not looking at them with Rose colored glasses either. If I have a dog that I am questioning what they are really contributing to the pack, I will pull them out by themselves and see for myself what is going on. Because it is just that dog out there, no one else jumping the rabbit, recovering the loss or keeping the chase going.

JCM · Post by **JCM** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:37 am

JJWI wrote:... If I have a dog that I am questioning what they are really contributing to the pack, I will pull them out by themselves and see for myself what is going on. Because it is just that dog out there, no one else jumping the rabbit, recovering the loss or keeping the chase going.

So the only way you can tell what a dog is contributing is to solo it?

Imagine if field trials were this way. I can just hear the judges. OK, handle the pack. We need to see the green collar dog run solo so we can tell what he is doing.

I think everyone should run whatever they want however they want, but I sure don't need to see a dog solo to know what it can do. And it just doesn't seem natural to have to solo a hound so he will perform better in a pack.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:46 am

It's not that you can't see anything in a pack, it's more about the fact you see everything when solo. Have seen numbers of dogs that were experts at "feeding" off the pack. Some were so good they could identify the lead dog and live in his back pocket. They rarely disrupt anything but are average hounds at best.

Judged a trial last winter where the hounds were all literally feeding off the dog running middle of the pack. Point being, just because a pack runs reasonably smooth with every dog barking does not mean every dog is contributing.

Just recently I have been bracing two dogs. They were packing good and driving the rabbits pretty good and appeared to be somewhat equal brace. When I pulled the female out the male could not move a track 10 feet. I'm not saying you can't identify a me too dog in a pack, but based on dogs I've run with or judged most can't. Some of you die hards like me that follow the pack through the briers taking sticks in the face eventually will. The guy who sits back and listens to the race and satisfied to pick out each hound barking doesn't have a clue.

The reason you have to settle a dog down after a trial is because there are so many dogs scattering all over barking without the line your dog can lose confidence in the pack. Rather than solo a dog after a rough trial I recomend bracing with an accurate honest mouth dog.

This has been interesting topic for me....hope nobody is taking this as a holier than thou but rather an insight into the thought process of fellow beaglers!!!