Mr. Bill and John's Buck V11

[Randy Osborne]

I like to hear from some of you guys that have been at it a long while and tell some things about Mr. BIll and Nick's buck V11. Nose ,style,foot, hunt,likes dislikes,and etc...

[gfedor]

Most time big nose, med plus speed. Smart dogs. Crosses well with flatcreek,kalagha jmo

[deerhost]

I had one 6-7 years back that went back to mr. Bill stuff and that line. The one I had had extra mouth. I'm not so sure of what kind of hunt that stuff throws either,
Not nocking those dogs at all, But I saw one or two at trials that lacked some hunt. The one I had had good hunt. As far as the extra mouth I spoke to butch Kean via e-mail before he died and he told me that the line did throw some extra mouth at times......DH

[Budd]

[gwyoung]

Randy, have seen Mr. Bill run. With nose usually comes mouth, generally this means they are going to cold trail. have not seen extra mouth on the line ( barking without scent with hounds directly out of Bill and a couple of different females. Have owned hounds that came through John's Buck vII ( directly out of Bill) I believe this is who you are referring to instead of Nic's Buck VII, even though there was a Nic's Buck. and some of THEM had a little extra on the line. I never saw John's Buck VII run but Butch Keene told me he was a fine hound and a very deserving field champion better than most hounds but nowhere near the hound that Bill was. I seriously doubt that many folks have ever seen a better rabbit hound than Bill when one considers that sometimes you have to run them at 20 below as well as 90 above. He was fairly close on his checks as well didn't over-run a mile and then circle to find it! Didn't let over-runners pull him along either, he would turn it and go, you hear that a hell of a lot but how many times have you ever seen it, most will never see it which is not a lack on our part but on the part of hounds! As someone has said in my opinion with the Bill hounds I have seen they did lack a little in the hunt department, didn't stand around under your feet and would constantly be looking, but were hesitant to get into the thick stuff until one was up. I have seen a lot of hounds go, Field Champions, International Field Champuions, Branko Bred hounds etc, and have been in this a long time Mr. Bill was always my benchmark, He was so far ahead of every thing else as a rabbit hound, I couldn't even tell you what hound would be second, certainly none of mine!

[deerhost]

Gwyoung, definitely has more knowledge on this line then I have. I'm just talking about the few I have seen that had the bill stuff in there line. Bruce mcnielly of NY. Told me he saw bill run and it was what Gary said, on the line and straddled it with good speed. he told me he was the best he has ever seen. I think everything Bruce has in his kennel goes back to mister bill.

[gwyoung]

Andre, Bruce McNielly, being a rabbit hunter, an AKC licensed judge, and Field Trialer, ( I believe Bruce is a Judge) I am sure that he has seen a lot of good hounds run, and living in the North east I am sure he has seen some tough conditions. It doesn't surprise me that he considers Bill the best he has ever seen, speaks well of both of them!

[Randy Osborne]

Thanks Gary, I did mean John's Buck V11. Yes from all of the studying that I have done I think Bill lines seem some of the most intersting to me. I was hoping some that have seen Bill and John's Buck V11 run would chime in, if they read this. I know there is a lot of guys with knowledge of such greats out there! We can learn a lot from those that have been there and done that and it is fun reading such experiences ! Thanks, Randy

[deerhost]

Bruce has been doing this for a long time and that's why I mentioned him. I like a dog with control and a big nose and so I have always been interested in the Mr. Bill stuff so I decided to e-mail butch and speak to him personally and when I ran into Bruce a few years back at a trial I spoke to him about mr. Bill in depth because that's what he runs. If I remember correctly Bruce told me he judged mr. Bill as an apprentice judge when he was a young man. I ve also spoken to others who have seen him run. Bill has been dead for a good while now so if the off springs aren't line bred then bill is pretty far back in the pedigree. I have personally watched a few grand pups to bill run. And also purchased a pup out of Fc Sabattus mountain Otis (a bill grand son) a few years back. The pup went over 13" and I only run 13" so I gave her away barely started to a beagler here in NY. He later told me that she lacked in the hunt dept after he put some time in her. That with what I've seen in some that I watched run and the other I owned made me decide to go in another direction. No disputing he was a great hound and produced well but a lot of the blood is so diluted now that its hard to chase it around. Just my opinion. Stay well Gary and Randy.

[gwyoung]

Andre, I suspect that Bruce Mcneilly would be a good place to start if one is looking for Bill Blood. I wish that I had bred to him more than what I DID. But time and money was a problem at that time. Bill himself had decent search and hunt, if he did not I would not have bred to him. Lest any think that Bill hounds would not hunt this is not so! It just that I have a very strong opinion of what " good Hunt" is, and I believe Andre probably feels likewise. I guarantee you Most Bill hounds that I am familiar with have as much hunt as 70% of what is being ran at the trials today. It's just that I think 70% of what is being ran are a little weak on hunt , same as most of the Bill hounds that I am familiar with. Similarly, I believe what most are hunting with are a little weak on hunt! Could Bill have been the greatest rabbit hound that ever lived? Could be!

[deerhost]

I believe you Gary. Thats what I was told is that he hunted well. But like I said it so far back in some of the hounds you see today. Some of the ones I seen run were with winter street hounds on the bottom side. There are so many good lines out there today that someone could start out with that are running right at the moment. I was at the North East Beagle Gundog Federation Champianship derby trial earlier today in Lebanon PA. I have two derbies that are qualified to run in the trial. So I ran one 15" male today in a class of I believe it was 23 big derbies. It was 94 degrees today,those derbies ran a rabbit around with barely tropping it like you wouldn't believe in that heat. They stayed in a neat little pack for the most part and moved it with good speed, no walkie talkie stuff. with 8 hounds still down fighting for the winners pack I got picked up 8th. I didn't mind so much, I was just glad to have stayed down that long with such a talented group of young dogs. Some of the hounds I have seen that would fit the bill are Flatcreeks, Choptank, chop-a-line, some of the Nevils stuff and many more for medium to upper medium speed hounds, For a step quicker, Mike Johnsons stuff from PA Hucks-Run-Beagles I watched two young dogs out of Mikes kennel a few weeks back at Lycoming and they could flat smoke a rabbit with huge nose and hunt but like I said a good step faster, for a more hard hitting dog the slocums kennel in NY or Perry Piacentino also of NY. These are all kennels that are producing hunting dogs that can be seen run and are producing well. Personally I have liked the stuff I've seen run in the upper north east section of PA and the south east portion of NY. A good compromise bettween foot and line control with good hunt. Most are a mix of the dogs listed above. Some are a mix of both hare blood and cottontail breeding. there are lots of nice dogs alive today that one can get pups from. Anyway I'm starting to ramble on, Take care and talk to you guys soon.....DH

[Randy Osborne]

Hey Andre, I'm like you there are other lines of dogs that I like also. I just happen to like some Bill stuff too. I thought it was a good topic also. I wanted to tell you since I saw one of you last post's. I just got back from VA. last weekend and picked up a pair of pups that the dam was from Choptank kennel and sire was off Buck's Branch kennel. I like some of the same places that you just mentioned and have been biding my time getting more of those lines. It was a 12hr ride one way to get those last pups, but I'm glad that I got them. It's funny that you mentioned some of those places , because I have been corresponding with Choptank and some for awhile now. I like reading your posts also. Good hunting and may God have his blessings on you, Randy

[deerhost]

Good choice Randy. let us know how they turn out.......Andre

[Joe Parrino]

Nic's buck 0-1 on HUNT, start a rabbit and he could run it, he lacked Hunt. Mr Bill My thinking on Bill is his abilty to run LPH came from is Dam's side. Mr Bill was bred to alot 1st bitch he bred before he even finished was Eaton Brook Rebecca. I don't think Bill was the Best of All Time, to big a statement to make. Take the number of bitches bred times the amount of pups out of him times all those entered in trials and thats is his breeding percent for trialers.
Gay Dash had NO Hunt, that would be Bucks Sire. John's Buck was not a hound for me, mouthy. One of the best Bill pups I seen was (Al)Steve Cuomos bitch Patty I took a 2nd in the State Chapionship to her very nice hound. I liked Mr Bills Sister better than Bill JMO. Flat Creek Josh was a peanut roller, John Herny was a better hound, Great PR on Josh by Charlie at the time. I watch Shake & Blake run neither was what I liked, alittle on the slow side hunted to close for my liking. I have MrBill on tape running with my bitch nice hound I bred to him. The Above is from seeing for myself not "hear say" nor rumor that grew into legend. Nice hound but Dingus, Jiggs, Adirondack Bobby, DFJ Murphy White, and the likes I would not say best that ever lived NO. Socket To Me, Northway,FC Butlers Stricker FC Shermans Babbling Butch, Mr T,FC Roxline Cunninghams Butch, FC Big Bad Gladce Brown, Big Brook Buster,Dick Doyle had some good ones. Iam not bashing Bill nor Buck just giving you my take on what I seen. Many Bill pups had bad bites, crooked legs, and troubles, was it all Bills fault NO alot of Poor bitches were breed to him.

[gwyoung]

Joe, thanks, for your take on it. Bill produced about twenty five field Champions. Now according to the high percent of breedings he received which leads to his breeding percentage, has nothing to do with the statement he may have been the best ever as a Rabbit dog. There is a reason all of those bitches were bred to him. I watched Josh run and He was lower medium, in my estimation. Coone Creek John Henry put on one of the best runs I ever saw at a trial, due to running with some good pack mates things were very smooth and he won in convincing fashion. I believe we have different tastes when it comes to the speed of hounds. Bill was not a fast hound and that may have turned some folks off, If he was fast it would have probably turned a lot more off, due to the roughness it would have brought with it. He did just fine on receiving bitches for breedings at his speed. I never watched Bill run in tough conditions but I corresponded with Butch Keene over the years and he was big on him as a rabbit hound. In tough scent he told me he never saw a better one and I am sure he has seen some of the hounds you mentioned run as well. I will take Butch's word on a rabbit hound over most other's opinion, not that others are wrong it's just that Butch and I seemed to agree on what makes a good hound . Judging what I have seen first hand and the opinion of men Like Butch, Bill could no doubt get it done when most would fail. To be a great hound you have to be capable of running them in all conditions. I never saw the conformation faults that you speak of from Bill Hounds, when bred to good Females. As far as John's Buck VII is concerned I think a lot of the mouth that mr. Bill gets the rap for came through him. But that could just be another example of him being bred to poor females ! But I think not! This is a good thread and thanks for your opinion, Now, since Bill wasn't the best, in your opinion you must know of a hound that was better in all conditions than Bill whether on rabbit or Hare, is that correct?