To big and/or to small beagles??

[bfoster]

Why is there such a big issue about hounds over 15", but yet the same thinking and/or complaining is not found with hounds under.

I mean people seem to really get upset about a hound being registered that is over 15", but aren't found complaining when a 11" hound is registered or even smaller than that.

Yes, guys I understand AKC doesn't set and under limit but does have an over limit. I also understand where our Beagle breed came from and that their standard is 16". I'm just not understanding people's passion to complain???? Either one is bad for the breed, but the passion level is completely one sided.

[Round Hill Kennels]

Ive wondered the same thing. I have also wondered why looks of a lot registered hounds do not meet akc standards. What happened to the blocky head and square muzzle? Anymore when Im looking for a pup or dog, they all look like they have been bred with a jack russell with their pointy muzzle and skinny head. And Ive been noticing some crooked legs in the front.. Seems like we have gotten away from the confirmation of a beagle and focusing on size.

[mybeagles]

The passion you refer to I think has more to do with competition than protecting the breed standard. Beaglers spend many many hours training and preparing a hound for competition, travel several hours and spend hundreds of $$$ to discover a small group of beaglers/judges have some disregard for the rules. Regardless of wether or not someone believes size is an advantage or not, the size limits are clearly stated in the rules and most beaglers have the expectation that they will be followed. When the rules are not followed or percieved that they are not followed you will see these "passions" expressed. There may be some out there somewhere, but in several years of trialing and judging Ive never seen a beagle under 11" competing in a trial. Most of mine are between 11-12" but Ive never had one under 11". The pocket beagles that you may be referring to are house pets, not competition dogs and I dont think many on this website have pocket beagles.
Bfoster, Have you ever seen a beagle competing in a trial under 11"? In AKC they have two classes. over 13" to 15" and under 13". If you wanted to apply a 2" window to the 13" class then it would go down to 11". never measured one at a trial under 11".

Organizations such as AHRA and UKC that register dogs on the spot have very little regard for preserving the purity of the breed standard in my opinion. AKC is certainly not perfect, but it appears the DNA profiles are exposing some of the worst violators. Until DNA becomes mandatory for all registrations there will be those that register mutts, just as there will always be individuals that try to compete with oversize dogs.

[S.R.Patch]

I posted this to your same question over on the rabbit dog board.
Many of our hounds were procured and sent over by Otho Paget, he was a believer in "the best in the smallest package you can get".
In England, they don't hunt hare with guns, it is sport between the hare and the hounds. The people side only comes from the viewing of the sport challenge between the two.
England set their limit at 16" because it was felt that anything bigger was of poor quality if they couldn't hunt and catch their hare, also, anything bigger with good ability would be so fast that viewing the hunt would be nearly impossible to keep up with and that was one of the main objectives, to view the hounds hunting the hare.
I'm sure here, it was felt the same way being as we ran cottontails at the early start of beagling, then guns came into the picture and even smaller hounds would serve the purpose, as sport and catching the rabbit was reserved for those who enjoyed the old pureness intended and not the trickle of blood from the use of a gun.
The minimum size in England was set as it was seen anything less than 13" had little or no hope of catching/accounting for their hare and the smaller than 13" were often called dwarfs. When hounds get so small, they tend to get out of proportion in body, the extra work exerted from this causes them to wear out and the term, "little hounds grow older faster" comes to be.

Rev., I passed off English beagles to AKC and they readily accepted them...hummm...wonder why?... was it money? or was, to deny them would invalidate the whole AKC registry, as that's where it got it's start?

Your assumption are all fun to read, but you need to do some real study on the history of beagling. Remove all your prejudices and open your mind to the sport and the hounds. Did you ever watch the movie "War Horse"? A battle was stopped to free a horse from barbwire because both sides respected and honored the extraordinary animal for what it was, it had served both side.
It's a great movie and a great lesson.

[warddog]

I don't trial BUT still have the passion to keep beagles that meet the standards of the registry that certifies them. I have had and been around beagles and coon hounds since I was big enough to walk and remember when UKC started their beagle registry. I had two grade dogs that I had registered when they started which I believe they called those first registered, foundation stock at the time. I suppose that is where AKC started many years ago but have established documented ancestry over the years so as to be able to certify the lineage. The breed standards set forth by "THEIR" registry is exactly that, what they consider must be met in order for "THEIR" registry to certify a beagle as meeting the criteria of "THEIR" standards. If one looks at the breed standands of AKC, most of the other registries in the U.S. follow "THEIR" guidelines for certification by them. Another look at the breed standards will obviously show that all of the standards such as head which includes muzzle, ears, eyes,skull; body including shoulders/chest, back/loin then legs,feet and tail are all qualities of the breed standard that have point demerits when not as described BUT there is only one standard that is of such fault that it is considered a DISQUALIFICATION and that is exceding the 15" height limit.
I also understand that The kennel Club (UK) recongnizes beagles up to 16" but they also disqualify for exceeding that height limit so evidently size does matter regardless of the registry. By the way the UK also used to regognize the "pocket beagle' some years ago as well but has for years considered it a breeding flaw or a stunted sized beagle for whatever reason AND they also knew that the beagle breed standard would encompass them in the 13" or less catagory.
I'm of the opinion the registries have established standards that "THEY" themselves set as a requisite for entry into "THEIR" program and if "THEY" establish them then "THEY" should hold ALL to a "T" as it matters not what you or I think or believe when it comes to having an advantage but rather what the individual registry certifies with "THEIR" brand stamped on the paperwork. It matters not to me as a rabbit hunter whether a be4agle is 15" or 10" but rather that they bring the game to the gun. What does matter to me is a beagle that has been CERTIFIED to meet the breed standards of a registry and then it not do so.
In my eyes it's all about following the rule of law in the case of a registry and if they can not or do not then we have a piece of paper that lacks backing of being of any real value. I'm NOT saying that a oversized dog isn't of real value as far as being a good or even great rabbit dog BUT it certainly should not even be recognized by a registry that has a limit on any size be it 15 or 16 inches.
I've seen several people in positions in the government with one of those internet degrees that they BOUGHT, get found out and striped of their employment! They even had a supervisor with a store bought veterinarian degree who was eventually terminated when exposed!
All this has nothing to do with ability but ALL to do with what the registries certify when they place "THEIR" stamp of recognition on "THEIR" document. We all know that it is becoming more and more expensive to register and ALL I expect when paying my money is that it is true to what "THEY" say "THEY certify. I'm kind of OLD school and believe a word is a bond be it yours, mine or a registries!

[S.R.Patch]

The AKC has no rule for "registry" other than both parents come from AKC registered hounds or a "recognized registry" equivalent ie...Canada Kennel Club or Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles(UK) come to mind .

All these "other rules" are for meeting qualifying standards to compete in AKC trials and shows, then once you've made it into the trail/show, there are many other rules that get you demerits or disqualified.

Thank goodness they still leave the art of breeding and selection up to the breeders and houndsmen...

By the way the UK also used to regognize the "pocket beagle' some years ago as well but has for years considered it a breeding flaw or a stunted sized beagle for whatever reason AND they also knew that the beagle breed standard would encompass them in the 13" or less catagory.

I think I've read where Queen Elisabeth was the last to have a pack of hunting "pocket beagles" that were stolen and never recovered. There are two registries in the UK for beagles, one called "the Kennel Club"(show dogs) and the other, AMHB(Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles) hunting pack hounds. The hunting packs stick to the 13"-16" scale.

[begles]

AKC started the 15 in. rule. England rules say not under 13 in. and up. no hight limit.
look it up at.
English Beagles | English VS American - Beagle Pro | Complete ...

[S.R.Patch]

I think you've miss-read or not completely. 16" is the upper limit, anything over is considered a Harrier.

[Norshore]

The Beagle Breed Standard
(As from 01/01/2010)


INTRODUCTORY PARAGRAPH

A Breed Standard is the guideline which describes the ideal characteristics, temperament and appearance of a breed and ensures that the breed is fit for function. Absolute soundness is essential. Breeders and judges should at all times be careful to avoid obvious conditions or exaggerations which would be detrimental in any way to the health, welfare or soundness of this breed. From time to time certain conditions or exaggerations may be considered to have the potential to affect dogs in some breeds adversely, and judges and breeders are requested to refer to the Breed Watch section of the Kennel Club website here http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/servi ... eeds/watch for details of any such current issues. If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure. However if a dog possesses a feature, characteristic or colour described as undesirable or highly undesirable it is strongly recommended that it should not be rewarded in the show ring.


GENERAL APPEARANCE: A sturdy, compactly-built hound, conveying the impression of quality without coarseness.

CHARACTERISTICS: A merry hound whose essential function is to hunt, primarily hare, by following a scent. Bold, with great activity, stamina and determination. Alert, intelligent and of even temperament.

TEMPERAMENT: Amiable and alert, showing no aggression or timidity.
HEAD & SKULL: Fair length, powerful without being coarse, finer in the bitch, free from frown and wrinkle. Skull slightly domed, moderately wide, with slight peak. Stop well defined and dividing length, between occiput and tip of nose, as equally as possible. Muzzle not snipy, lips reasonably well flewed. Nose broad, preferably black, but less pigmentation permissible in lighter coloured hounds. Nostrils wide.

EYES: Dark brown or hazel, fairly large, not deep set or prominent, set well apart with mild appealing expression.

EARS: Long, with rounded tip, reaching nearly to end of nose when drawn out. Set on low, fine in texture and hanging gracefully close to cheeks
.
MOUTH: The jaws should be strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. the upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.


NECK: Sufficiently long to enable hound to come down easily to scent, slightly arched and showing little dewlap.

FOREQUARTERS: Shoulders well laid back, not loaded. Forelegs straight and upright well under the hound, good substance, and round in bone, not tapering off to feet. Pasterns short. Elbows firm, turning neither in nor out. Height to elbow about half height at withers.

BODY: Topline straight and level. Chest let down to below elbow. Ribs well sprung and extending well back. Short in the couplings but well balanced. Loins powerful and supple, without excessive tuck-up.

HINDQUARTERS: Muscular thighs. Stifles well bent. Hocks firm, well let down and parallel to each other.

FEET: Tight and firm. Well knuckled up and strongly padded. Not hare-footed. Nails short.

TAIL: Sturdy, moderately long. Set on high, carried gaily but not curled over back or inclined forward from root. Well covered with hair, especially on underside
.
GAIT/MOVEMENT: Back level, firm with no indication of roll. Stride free, long reaching in front and straight without high action; hind legs showing drive. Should not move close behind nor paddle nor plait in front.

COAT: Short, dense and weatherproof.

COLOUR: Tricolour (black, tan and white); blue, white and tan; badger pied; hare pied; lemon pied; lemon and white; red and white; tan and white; black and white; all white. With the exception of all white, all the above mentioned colours can be found as mottle. No other colours are permissible. Tip of stern white.

SIZE: Desirable minimum height at withers 33cm (13ins.).
Desirable maximum height at withers 40cm (16ins.).

FAULTS: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.


NOTE: Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.

Copyright The Kennel Club
Reproduced with their kind permission



Defining the Colours in the UK Beagle Standard
The Kennel Club states in our Breed standard (from January 1st 2010):
“Colour: Tricolour (black, tan and white); blue, white and tan; badger pied; hare pied; lemon pied; lemon and white; red and white; tan and white; black and white; all white. With the exception of all white, all the above mentioned colours can be found as mottle. No other colours are permissible. Tip of stern white.”
We have tried to reproduce examples of the colours here to help explain this part of the Beagle Breed Standard. If you have any questions please contact Sam Goldberg or any other member of the NMCBC to help you understand them or if you would like help with registering puppies the correct colour.

Tricolours: black, tan and white. Puppies are born mainly black and white or with some tan showing. The amount of white varies from hound to hound. As they age the black area gradually changes to more tan and some may lose most of their original black with the saddle over the body being the last to fade.

Blue, white and tan: This is a variant of the tricolour with a colour dilution gene. There is a blue cast to the area, which would normally be black, and the tan is usually lighter.

Pied beagles: Intermingling of hairs with different colours producing different shades over the body produces the pied group. The background colour is a cream rather than white. Badger pied is the darkest of these with the colours black, silver and tan or fawn mixing to give a badger type colour.

Hare pied is the middle road with less black hairs that are confined to the spine giving a stripe along the backbone.

Lemon pied is a mixture of two colours with no black hairs giving a much lighter look. These beagles can appear almost cream all over.

Lemon and white: red and white; and tan and white are all variations of depth of colour of the group where only two colours are inherited. No black hairs are present on such beagles. Such hounds are born white or white with some shading on the body that darkens as they age. A true lemon and white has a black nose whereas the other two coloured beagles tend to have a lighter often-brown nose.

Black and white: a very unusual combination in show beagles, such hounds may have very small tan “pips” above the eyes.

White: again an unusual colour to be found in beagles. In some breeds of dog lack of ear pigment can be associated with deafness although this is not common in beagles.

Mottle pattern variant: this is a gene inherited separately from the other colours and produces a spotting pattern in the white areas. It is a dominant variant of the white patterning gene (at least one parent must carry it) and not to be confused with hounds that have a few small ticks on the legs. Mottling is not present at birth but the colour gradually appears and such hounds have pigmented feet and fully pigmented noses.
Colour description by Sam Goldberg




THE BEAGLE – a breed profile

The Beagle is aptly described by the Kennel Club Standard as, “a merry hound whose essential function is to hunt “, and as “bold, with great activity, stamina and determination.” His small size, unexaggerated appearance, short coat and pleasant disposition, particularly with children, are all points in his favour as an ideal family pet. It must be remembered however, that despite his good temperament, the Beagle can be extremely strong willed and independent and not an easy dog to train.

There are many colours and a wide range of markings acceptable in the breed including tricolour, lemon and white, hare-pied and mottled. They are all equally acceptable although of course people have individual preferences. The only essential marking is the white tip to the stern (tail) that is there to enable the huntsman to see it more easily in thick cover. Whilst accepted by hunting packs, the Kennel Club standard does not permit liver as a colour option.

Two of the Beagle’s greatest loves are exercise and food. He loves free exercise, off the lead so that he can explore and gallop to satisfy his inquisitive and energetic nature. He will walk as far as you want him to, and more besides, but will be content to enjoy a minimum walk of say one mile or 20 minutes each day, so long as he also has frequent access to the garden for a chase or a sniff around. As far as feeding goes, he will thrive on very little; in fact the Beagle Owner’s biggest downfall is often to overfeed his pet - Beagles are not only noted for their good appetites but also for their inclination to put on weight very easily.

Being a short-coated breed, a Beagle requires a minimum amount of grooming. A hound glove with a bristly side and a velvety side is all that is really required to keep his coat clean and shiny. Although Beagles do shed their coats it is rare for them to do so heavily. Usually the transition from old to new occurs more gradually than in other more densely coated breeds.

Beagles are generally a healthy breed with a few reports of epilepsy, hip dysplasia, steroid responsive meningitis (SRM) and Musladin-Leuke Syndrome. SRM is currently under investigation and DNA testing for MLS status has recently started in the UK.

The best way to keep your beagle healthy is to ensure that he isn’t allowed to put on too much weight and so long as his other basic needs, such as regular exercise and a warm dry bed to snuggle up in, are catered for, he will provide his owners with affection and fun for many years, possibly well into his teens. For further information you may find the following link useful The Health of UK Beagles

A good sense of humour, lots of patience and occasionally nerves of steel are all essential characteristics of the successful Beagle owner, particularly on those occasions when the beloved pet refuses to come back when called; preferring to play with one of his canine pals, pursue the line of a rabbit or simply to roll in something nasty!

David Nicholson

Recommended Reading
The Health of UK Beagles
BEAGLE by Elizabeth Lanyon; Part of the Pet Love series, published by Vincent Lane.
ISBN: 1-902389-33-6 A good general introduction to the breed with lots of practical advice for the novice owner.
BEAGLES TODAY by Andrew H. Brace; published by Ringpress books Ltd. 1997. ISBN: 1 86054 096 1
Of particular interest to those who wish to become involved in exhibiting, breeding and judging beagles.

[backroadkennels]

I personally don't think that it should matter how small or big the beagle is in order for it to be registered, if its a beagle its a beagle, i have had and seen litter mate dogs that have came both big and small, their just like people they come in all shapes and sizes, even if you breed two small dogs you have a good chance of getting and a couple tall ones out of the bunch and the same way when u breed two big dogs ur gonna have a few in the litter smaller than the rest and if there registered stock they should all stay registered stock, thats just my opinion.

[warddog]

[quote="S.R.Patch"]The AKC has no rule for "registry" other than both parents come from AKC registered hounds or a "recognized registry" equivalent ie...Canada Kennel Club or Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles(UK) come to mind .

All these "other rules" are for meeting qualifying standards to compete in AKC trials and shows, then once you've made it into the trail/show, there are many other rules that get you demerits or disqualified.

I agree with you Patch that the registry in and of itself is probably now only certifying that the dogs are purebred when they 'originally" register them BUT when they award any type of points or degree via a bench show or trial they are certifying that the dog has met the standards for such participation. and goes above/beyond merely being purebred. That is what I meant when I referred to a registry's certification and if one, such as myself, doesn't compete in a registry's events the size of the purebred hound makes no difference to me nor does it have any bearing on the rabbits I run. I will also say that way back when I registered the two grade beagles I had as foundation stock in UKC they were inspected by a breed inspector to assure they met the breed standards before that was approved. So, I assume UKC as well as the other registries may have progressed to the point of NOT staying on top of that as it was originally but there was a time that I know UKC did. I suppose that once the parentage has been put in the files they assume the standards are automatically meet when registered.

[bfoster]

Though my ability to “ask the right question” may not have been present in my original post, I’d like to thank all you great members for your responses and discussion on the topic. I was able to achieve the understanding I sought and for that I thank you all.

I may not like it all, but by understanding it, I can adjust to it and continue to improve the Beagle with “MY” involvement.

Here’s to the betterment of the Beagle as a working hound with proper form and function!!