Opinion vs. Law

[warddog]

There have been threads on here in which folks have asked for and received opinons on several issues. Many have discussions well over 3000 views BUT I doubt few come away with any real answers and are left with their own opinion. A couple topics that have had much discussion are those of numbers killed and ones right to chew another hunting party out for shooting game that their dogs are pursuing. I understand that laws in general differ from state to state including game laws BUT there are about 35 or so states that have game laws that are basically reciprocal. These states have game laws that are nearly mirror images of one another and even acknowledge game violations that a hunter may have commited in another state as a history on them when violating a game law within their state.
Having relatives in Kansas and Missouri who I used to hunt with quite often years ago and may do so again in the future i am always interested to know what the word of law is in their state(s). In the onset of one such discussion I sent an e-mail to one States Dept. Of Conservation to see exactly how they interpreted the law as it applied to the two issues cited above as well as how they determine numbers and possession limits. I put this into a persoanl information request by me as an out of their state hunter looking to understand the word of law on these issues in their state.
It has taken until now to get a response from this states Dept. Of Conservation in re to my concerns and I'm curious if folks are interested in knowing the states intent in their word of law or whether they are satisfied with their own opinions. If enough interest is generated I will post the exact e-mail and response I received.
I'm NOT trying to make issues more controversial than they already are among different folks but merely serve as a learning tool for those on the board with that in mind. If the sight administrator or the moderator(s) feel this is not something this board supports then I will of course abide by their rule of law and not post any further regardless of those wanting to know what I found out but will respond via PM.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Wardog, I will tell you what i know after 25 or so years in a service dept people dont want to hear the truth but choose to hear what they want to hear, or what there opinions dictates. To me its all about the facts and policies and procedures.With that being out there i do not believe stoney or bev will have a problem with this post unless we start to too throw stones.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

Even though I am fairly certain I know what would legally happen, I am curious as to what you were told by MDC....

I have contradictory emails from them on one occasion that still makes me laugh when I read them...

PM with what you were told though because most of the time they get it right... and since I live here I am VERY curious as to who's rabbit it legally was and what the response to the cursing out would have been

[yoteslayer]

Send it to me too!

[Ohiohntr]

After these two instances in dealing with the ODNR I have sort of lost interest in what the "law" says......

1. I shot a doe on the last day of deer gun season a few years ago. We blood trailed her for a good distance and light was growing dim. I saw the doe laying in a fence row with her head up but it was well past shooting light. I called the Warden to find out what I should do since deer have to be checked in by 8pm on the last day and this doe was not going to die by then unless I put another slug in her. I waited until 6pm and went to check on the doe.....she was still laying with her head up and I still had not gotten a return phone call. I called 4 other Wardens from other counties to try and get an answer but got voicemails at every number. 7:30pm rolls around and the doe is not dead and out of 5 different vmails to Wardens I did not get a call after 3hrs of waiting. Not wanting to break the law (she was laying across from a house who would no doubt call the law at the sound of a slug gun going off after dark) I chose to wait her out till morning and by then I would have a return call from someone telling me how to check her in. Well, morning comes and we find the doe which had been eaten by coyotes and was not salvagable. 4 DAYS.....yes, 4 DAYS later the Warden called me back. He said sorry there was nothing I could have done because he would have had to ticket me for shooting after hours had I killed her that night and if I would have checked her in on Monday as a gun kill I would have been ticketed for unlawful taking of a deer with a shotgun out of season. If to do over again I would have just put another slug in her right from the start and hope I didn't get called in.

2. Several years ago I cold busted a new neighbor tresspassing...in total he admitted to killing 5 bucks, 2 during bow and 3 during gun...all dink bucks except for one nice 8pt (limit is 1 for the entire season). I debated for a long time if I should turn him in but since he moved in our buck quality has diminished yet we have hundreds of doe running everywhere so I decided the law should at least pay him a visit to slow him down. I called the poacher line and they told me everything was confidential and it would be investigated. I know this guy so-so and would know if he had gotten busted....nope, nothing, nada!!! I talked to the local Warden a few months after this and asked him if the complaint even got to him and his response was "ya, I stopped by and told him you thought he killed more than one buck...he said he didn't...case closed." So ya, I don't have the best relationship with my neighbor anymore. Let's just say his corn row plants in my father-in-laws field didn't do so well that next year. I saw him while he was tresspassing during the next season and I simply told him, you killed my bucks...I killed your buzz...understood. The quality has gone up and he is still killing over the limit, but now doe instead of small bucks.

Anymore, I let common sense outweigh the law when it comes to hunting situations. For example, it is illegal for me to carry a pistol while running dogs at night because I don't have a carry permit and have been told by the ODNR that it is considered hunting rabbits with a weapon after shooting hours. Am I going to let my dogs become a coyote chew toy, nope!!, therefore I carry and hope to not get caught. Common sense should tell a Warden that I am not rabbit hunting with a pistol after dark but the law says I am wrong.

So ya, post it up....I am curious to see if Joey was right or wrong in the laws eyes. Still probably wouldn't change what I would have done or will do though because I won't wait for the law to come tell me what to do or what is right or wrong in their eyes anymore. I would rather explain why I broke the law and ask for forgivness.

[Tsa la gi]

Wardog,
I think you should put it on and let the chips fall where they may. As was atated folks want an opinion as long as it runs parallel with what they think. If you don`t want to please e/m it to me.
Thanks Tsa

[Bunnyblaster]

I don't see how it could be all that controversial??? It's the law as they understand or interpret it and when push comes to shove if you come face to face with one of them they'll win. I say post it and if you don't agree with it that's fine. There are plenty of laws, ordinances and other such rules that I don't always agree with and or don't think are all that practical but that doesn't make them any less enforceable by our game wardens. Warddog and I had a long discussion about one of the issues he is talking about and he knows full well that while I completely understand his explanation of the written word of the law that doesn't mean I think it's always the best way to handle it. But without the ability to make exceptions for certain cases the only real way to do it is to put it down in black and white. Is this always fair??? No. Is this the most practical way to go about it in most cases? Yes. Are we all always going to agree? No. Should we all be held accountable for following the law? Absolutely.


Post it warddog............what can it hurt? It's for informational purposes so I say why not.

[hillbillyridgerunner]

hell im curious too. post it

[lebro]

post it

[pineridgebeagles]

Lets see it should be interesting.Al

[Robbie F.]

Why not just post the interpretation they gave you and be done with it? Seems like posting first to "see if there is any interest in it" is just going to draw more attention to it. How many people have to reply before you post the e-mail?

[Lee Cockman]

Somebody has too much time are there hands. Get a job or a life and leave others along. That is how to live.

[dog]

i say post it ! we already know some have no regaurds for the law anyway !

[warddog]

Had a job for 30 years of enforcing the law and now retired. Got a real good life as well and that's why I'm hoping that this may serve as a learning tool for others. Many of us have learned the hard way with ignorance of the law being no excuse.

I've copied and posted the e-mail as I received it other than removing the signature line. The answers from the Wildlife Div. are in parenthesis and were red on the original e-mail but the color did not copy over. As I stated this is only meant to serve as a learning situation.

Good morning Mr. Ward,

Information regarding trapping can be found in the A Summary of Missouri Hunting and Trapping Regulations booklet. I will put a copy in the mail to you today. It is also available online at http://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/r ... ummary.pdf. The information you seek can be found on page 16. I have answered your questions in red font next to your original email questions below.

I hope this information is of help. Please contact me if I can be of further assistance. Have a great day!

Thank you!
Kelly Sullens
Administrative Staff Assistant – Wildlife Division
P.O. Box 180, 2901 W. Truman Blvd.
Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180
(573) 522-4115 ext. 3153
Kelly.Sullens@mdc.mo.gov

-----Original Message-----
From: mdcweb@mdc.mo.gov [mailto:mdcweb@mdc.mo.gov] On Behalf Of Kenneth Ward
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:11 AM
To: Wildlife Division
Subject: [Released] [SPAM? 98 ] Topic: Hunting and Wildlife

Web question or comment:

Topic: Hunting and Wildlife

As you can see I'm from out of state and thinking about making a hunting trip to Relatives and possibly do some rabbit hunting with my dogs. I'm not sure at this time if we would be on public or private property but if on private of course we would have permission to do so. I am having trouble finding precise answers to a few questions or concerns I have as it relates to the pursuit of wild rabbits with my dogs. Having hunted in Indiana my entire life I'm aware that ALL wild game is the property of the people of the state and that possession does not take place until the wild rabbit is harvested. At that time it must be retrieved and added to the daily bag limit. I cannot find such information for Missouri anywhere which leads to my first question. When hunting party are using dogs and the dogs are in pursuit of a wild rabbit is this rabbit fair game to anyone until it is actually harvested? (Yes; fair game to any properly licensed hunter) At the time any person harvests a rabbit from fair chase is it at that time added to this individuals daily bag limit? (Yes; added to the daily bag limit of the hunter who harvested the rabbit) I understand the daily bag limit numbers but I have some confusion about the possession limit which seems to be two daily bag limits. In this case of rabbits we are talking 6 daily for a possession limit of 12. My question on this is, if I am hunting there all week and fill my daily bag limit of 6 for two hunting days so that I have 12 rabbits in my relatives freezer identified in my name would I then be in violation of the law if I hunted with my dogs the next day? (Yes; it would be a violation to take rabbits beyond your possession limit. However, if you donate the harvested rabbits to the relatives, it would take them out of YOUR possession limit) Would I then not be allowed to harvest any more rabbits until the numbers I possessed in the freezer were below the possession limit. (Correct, the numbers YOU possess will be lessened once you consume the rabbit(s) or donate them) I want to be sure so as to not violate any game laws. Thank you for any assistance in resolving my concerns as a non-resident hunter in your state.
--
K. Ward


--
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Phone:
Referred from: http://mdc.mo.gov/contact-us

[Lee Cockman]

The time you have taken to type all that I could have killed 5 more rabbits. Go run dogs or something you are not going live long worrying about others let along laws.