Ernie Weir, Jr., you owe Hatteras Bob an apology!

[smoss]

Ernie,
I asked Hatterasbob and he said you have the papers on Kemler's Blazing Nellie. Well its been 5 months and you will not answer my private messages. Send the papers on the dog. A deal is a deal! You said Hatterasbob had the papers on her, and he said you have them. I made the deal with you. Your responsibility. No one elses.
Shawn Moss

[Hills Beagles]

Did u even pay for the dog???

[smoss]

Ernie told me the papers would be sent to me after the female had her litter. She was bred by Blue Max, which was great. I paid for the transportation of the female to be sent to me. I got to keep the female for whelping the pups. And got to keep a pup as well. Ernie said Hatterasbob would register the litter. She didn't catch. Had a false pregnancy. I informed Ernie. This was March. Then send me the papers on the female. Several well know beaglers seen the female and the transporter said she didn't look pregnant. Well that happens. Sight unseen. Still want the papers. All of this was talked about in April, I sent pm's to Ernie and Hatterasbob. I just want the papers. Follow through on the deal. Plain and simple.

[Hills Beagles]

You didnt answer the question. What good is an old dog that can't have pups? My guess is your trying to sell a dog someone gave u.

[warddog]

It's really kind of hard to totally understand the deal that was made but if it was for you to raise a litter from this female for her and a pup then I would say that the deal was null and void when she didn't even have the litter that was the basis of the deal. You have shipping involved and the other person may have money involved as well so if this situation wasn't discussed in the deal you now have a situation of a verbal agreement that is null and void without any assurances of what is to transpire should the female not conceive and produce a litter for you to take care of for you to keep her and a pup. Many folks think that I'm crazy when I promote written agreements even when having a female bred as there should be contingency plans when things just don't work out. One of the things that I have a problem understanding is what guarantee should a owner of the female be entitled to when paying for a stud fee. The principle behind paying for a particular stud is to have a litter from him and the female and not merely being bred as that can be done by any ole dog. I know this is a controversial subject but I'm of the opinion that if a stud dog is put out to public stud then the owner takes on a pretty big responsibility. That responsibility would be to assure that a live litter was the result of the breeding, meaning the birth of more than one pup as litter is more than one. I totally understand that the female has as much to do with the conception as the stud dog BUT the female isn't the one in which a fee is being paid to reproduce. Many stud dog owners guarantee a live litter (two or more) or a return service to that stud dog or maybe another dog in their kennel should that not occur. If I were studding a dog I would have a written agreement between the parties so that such things would be addressed up front because when someone charges a fee for for a service they have the expectation of what that service would consist of. This then ties into this situation as what was the expectation of this deal? From what I read the deal was that the poster was to get the bred female to his place, keep her until she had and weaned the pups. He was to then keep the female and a pup for his time and expense in taking care of a pregnant female and the pups until weaning age. I suppose the rest of the litter was to go to the original female owner. So beings the female was NOT bred and there was no pregnant female or pups to spend extra time and effort on nor any pups to complete the deal of keeping one plus the female or in any pups being returned to the original female owner what is the basis for getting the papers on the female when she should still belong to the original owner? Yes, you now have an issue that needs addressed as to the cost of getting the female to you but was any of this discussed prior to doing so? You didn't state when in this supposed pregnancy the female was shipped to you butiIf the transporter states that the female did not look bred then it seems to me that it was far enough along in the pregnancy to be able to tell and if the transporter stated that the female didn;t appear pregnant then that should have been a clue to do some discussing of a contingency plan should that happen, which it did.

[smoss]

Hills Beagles glad your interested in this post, I did not pay for beagle. In the agreement, I got to keep the dog after the said litter, was going to be born. No, I do not have intensions of selling the dog, but see that you assume very easily. So sorry, life is probably never boring for you. You asked "What good is an old dog that can't have pups" How about just seeing someone carry through with what they say there going to do.

[bucks better beagles]

Vote for Smoss: He should get the papers. What he does with the dog is his business.

[Hills Beagles]

Just curious smoss, did u actually make the deal with Ernie or did someone else? If he gave u the papers what assurance would he have he'd get a pup if she takes next time? Just curious and bored. Thanks and good luck!

[tinymwoods]

Ernie,
You said Hatterasbob had the papers on her, and he said you have them. I made the deal with you. Your responsibility. No one elses.
Shawn Moss

First off, I don't know anyone involved, and I am just stating my opinion in a place where my nose doesn't belong, except that smoss put it out into a public forum.

If you made the deal with Ernie, then the deal was that he did not have the papers, or was this after the fact? Dealing with "suppose to be registered", "soandso has the papers I think", "papers were lost but could be redone", "I may be able to find the papers", or even "I can get the papers to you later (from an unknown or untrusted source)" are all red flags to me. I would deal with some people on their word alone, but that number is not big. If I do not personally know someone, I just take what I am told at face value. It may not be right, but I trust only what I see. I know there are a few beaglers I have met that I would take their word on quite a bit. People I don't know, I don't trust completely.

Having said this, this sounds like a cluster bomb for you. Best of luck in the situation and I hope you get this sorted out. I wouldn't like the promise of a registered dog and not get the papers. I also wouldn't feel right about keeping the gyp after not keeping up my end of the bargain even if no fault of my own. What I would offer (and have done this) is offer for the owner to arrange getting the female back and for my expenses and inconvenience, they could offer me a pup from this female from a future litter. Just treat them right and most will treat you right. If you aren't being treated right, then shamey shamey shamey, now everyone knows their namey!

[hurryup]

Heres my 2 cents, what if she had the pups? How hard would it be to register them since no one has the papers. I don't know anyone but the fact the man has kept the female and put a bunch of feed and care in her means something. Dog food ain'r cheap.
Take her back and pay him board or cut your looses and give her and the papers up.. Seems simple. 3rd choice if you can't agree shoot her and call it quits.. no winner..

[smoss]

Hills Beagles, you refer to next time to ensure he gets a pup? That was not part of the deal. Neither was the age of the dog. He said she was around 9 1/2 years old, I seen the dog and was thinking, wow! This poor dog must have had a heck of a life, she looks old, after research I found out she was 11 years old when I got her. Guess what now she's 11 1/2 years old. Believe me when I say this, I would have never even considered getting a dog of that age. I guess after all is said and done. I know, I will never get papers on this dog. It don't hurt to inform the public on a certain individual. I was at our club trial this weekend and a fellow beagler said it best. Stay in your own association in dealing with dogs with people you trust. Lesson learned on my part.

[MGB]

You need a lawyer and written contract when dealing with Mr. Weir.

[warddog]

Again we are back to a DEAL made but nothing in writing or no third party witness so that the parties have a mutual understanding of what "the deal" actually was. As was stated previously by others I as well have nothing in this deal other than it is posted on a public forum but it relates to many other verbal "DEALS" that I have a problem with in most cases. One such thing is that of a stud dog and what is expected from a "stud service". I have elaborated on this before and it appears to me that there are varying interpretations of actually what it is you are paying for. I'm of the opinion that the expectation of a live litter is what the female owner has and that is exactly what the stud dog owner is purporting when offering a dog at public stud. This in my opinion is an implied warranty and I believe a case could be made in small claims court when a person paying for a public stud fee doesn't get a live litter, meaning more than one pup from the service paid for. The burden of proof would fall on the hands of the female owner but I believe that this could be easily done especially if the female has been bred, produced a litter or litters previously and has been checked by a Veterinarian. In the case of this post we have not heard the entire actual "DEAL" or the expectation of the parties and minus anything in writing the burden of proof lies on the charging party to which I think the "DEAL" never transpired in the first place as it appears to have been based on female being pregnant and the care needed for her and a litter. All the other stuff such as age, etc is secondary to the actual "DEAL" that was made.

[mybeagles]

Again we are back to a DEAL made but nothing in writing or no third party witness

wardog,

Since when did it require a notorized contract with witnesses to complete a dog deal? Thousands of dog deals are made every year. Ive made a few but never signed a contract. Had a guy ask me to sign a contract telling me how I must run the pup in question. Told him to keep the pup.

It's rediculous breeding 11 y/o dogs, its even more rediculous to hold the papers on an 11 y/o dog if someone is willing to care for it.

Mybeagles

[warddog]

Mybeagles,
First let me thank you for your service.
Now, I'll answer your question with a question as by answering it you will probably answer your own question. Would this person be able to prove this verbal "DEAL" were it put to paper and have a means of relief? No one ever stated that a written contract was required. What I am saying is that minus that, a person's word is merely another breath. Yes, I have made numerous deals on dogs and bought some sight unseen with pretty good results and have also had great luck on stud services as well. BUT, I did get into a stud service many years ago in which my female didn't take the first time and then only produced one pup on her next heat breeding by the same stud. Yeah, I know you are gonna say maybe it was her but beings she had a litter of 7 previously and afterwards by different stud dogs, I'd say it was him. After all the time and expense of two brucellosis tests, mileage to/fro as well as the stud fee I was of the opinion that i never got what I expected which was a litter, meaning more than one. I know what I expected and evidently the stud owner did as well as he did agree to a return service only to produce one pup and not a litter.