You be the judge...

[cjcocodrie]

Just imagine there is a five hound winners pack down to judge. All the dogs show equal “hunt” and soon we have a tally-ho. All the hounds hark in fair fashion, but soon we have three hitting the front hard, one behind by a few yards and one losing ground fast. As the race progresses we have to have the handler bring the last hound up to the pack twice before he is ordered up.
One dog has the front but overruns and creates a check four times on less than a circle. Only once does he work the check out before one of the other two front hounds work through it. He is ordered up leaving three hounds.
The race turns progressively smoother and the hound who remains yards behind is given opportunity to contribute but it becomes obvious that he is depending upon the two lead hounds and though there are no checks there are hard turns which the front two negotiate before he can arrive to join them, soon he is cutting corners to catch them and he is also ordered up.
Now we are down to a brace…. And what is the difference between the two who have both demonstrated that they deserve to be here? One hound has another gear – an overdrive – which he soon hits.
As a judge this is where you have to ask yourself – good or bad? Will it be his winning attribute or his undoing?
Scene one – he puts distance between himself and his bracemate and keeps it. He stays on the line and just drives harder and harder. Scene two – he shoots way to the front but overruns and the steadier hound works through him. Both easy calls –
BUT WHAT IF he “loops” a little on hard turns, runs across narrow (walking) trail before returning to point where the rabbit went down instead of across, but he still finds the line and proceeds ahead of his bracemate who arrives on the walking trail just as the front hound has picked up the line going down it, and makes the turn with no loop, but is still behind the front hound? When this happens more than once are you the judge who eliminates the front hound or the judge who gives him the win?



And would the rabbit hunter waiting on the ridge with his gun cocked agree with you?

[jim matuszewski]

Mostly just a gunner I'm alright with dog number 1 if he's keeping the front on his own he's working the style that works for him and most gun hunters, that being said dog number 2 would work just as well for gunning now your bringing into the fold of what style hound you like ,there is a style of hound for everyone out there. if the first dog was depending on the straighter dog to keep run going then that would be different

[DIXIEDOG]

I'm not a judge but I hunt in below zero temps fairly regular....in my kennel I want dog #2 all the way. I don't care for dogs that are always gambling, I understand it makes them faster but in cold weather it generally makes them useless.....the more they gamble the less rabbits you get.


As far as who wins the trial that all depends on the owner anyway right?

[NeilKimbrel7]

Depending on the size of the loop I'd have to go with dog 1. It sounds like he was in a check and looped comin back to loss and happened to hit the track...not his fault. Everyone wants a dog that can run all the line and all the front....it just is impossible. If i was debating I'd keep running them. If dog one got where he'd loop and dog 2 turned him then you have to go with dog 2. I also love dogs that run to catch...with or without pack. The fact he was pullin away with just hounds on the ground is hard to do. If he was hurtin the race he'd be dependent on dog 2 to fix it, and from what you stated he's not. Again just the opinion I have and the style I'm lookin for. Hair or hole

[Bunnyblaster]

My answer is a split. I would suppose in a trial it would have to depend on what format and what the rules allow for or how they state that a hound should run the line. Supposing everything hound #1 did was within the limits of the rulebook then I don't think there should be a doubt that he is the winner. He did not depend on hound #2 to keep the line going for him and he ran the rabbit by himself. Now on a day with worse scenting conditions you may find that hound #2 will run the front or at the very least they would be running closer together.

Now as a rabbit hunter only and not a trialer I would personally prefer to own hound #2 for the same reason Dixiedog said. I want a dog that doesn't blow a check and create a loss. Rabbits have been hard to find and run around here for the last couple of years so when we do get one up I want them to stay with it as long as it'll run.

The only part that kind of gets me is that you said this dog had an extra gear which to me means he can also gear down and/or you saw him do it when he needed to earlier in the trial. If scenting allows him to run a step faster and still keep it going by himself but he's also smart enough to gear down when the conditions call for it and still be able to keep it going by himself then he still wins the trial and as a rabbit hunter I'd take that hound any day of the week and twice on sundays. Hound #2 is still a good hound in my book but hound #1 just has an extra gear he can use that hound #2 doesn't.

[mybeagles]

As a judge your scoring the marked lines and checks......if a dog is determined to be causing checks he may be minused. In the end, both judges are keeping score and the dog with the most points is the winner......

It is suppost to be accomplishment over style.....

However, in a slower format such as UBGF, the over running and causing of checks will likely be demerited harder which will result in dog #2 having more points.

In large pack or mid-west associations, although dog #1 may get a minus or two, his overall point count will likely exceed dog #2 and he will be the winner.

Conditions would be a factor.....if running conditions are good and dog #1 can consistently hold the front and clean up his own mistakes he will be triumphant.

If conditions are poor, and dog #2 is cleaning up all the mess, his check points are going to add up quickly and will like surpass the lead dog.

Checks are generally weighted a little heavier than drive points. However, in your faster formats, most judges will not give a win to a dog that NEVER demonstrates it can take the lead and keep it at some point.

Hypotheticals are tough to give difinitive results too.....You judge the dogs for several hours, not just the last 20 minutes of the race.....One dog almost always has done more throughout the day.....

Mybeagles

[cjcocodrie]

Great answers, guys. Gives me a fair idea of the hounds & rules of the "trial styles" .

Quotuing Bunnyblaster: "and as a rabbit hunter I'd take that hound any day of the week and twice on sundays. Hound #2 is still a good hound in my book but hound #1 just has an extra gear he can use that hound #2 doesn't."

Bunnyblaster hit it on the head though, for my choice.

Just so happens that I've seen this scenerio twice with the same two hounds in the early DSBGF. One trial Hound #1 won after he consistantly ran as described and over the course of almost an hour left hound #2 behind time & time again. The next trial he was well on his way to doing it again when he was picked up for swinging. Hound #2 had the lead only once in this run as he jumped the rabbit. No, it was not my hound nor one of a friend's, but I always felt the hound was done an injustice. But both hounds did finish for Fd. Ch. even with the limited trials back then. The difference in results has just always fascinated me and divided the beaglers who witnessed it or talk about it, so I thought I'd get your opinions as well.

Thanks for the rulings.
CJ