The American Beagler Forum

I am relatively new to this format and know what the rulebook says on a jump but I am interested in how other judges define it and when you give a dog the points for a jump.How do I know the first dog to open actually jumped the rabbit without seeing it?I think it is important to reward a dog that kicked up a rabbit but there is no way you can see everything.I also don't want to reward a dog who is skirting the thick stuff but opens first on a rabbit that was pushed out by another dog.

if the judge doesnt see the dog jump he can stil give it a jump in lp liike if its the only dog in that area so it had to jump it ..but the presence of a hound can jump a rabbit ..it is possible and does happen that one dog opens and gets a strike another get a jump ..a jump in lp is 30 points!

I judge quite a bit in little pack and try to give jump points whenever possible. If you are right there and see what happens it is easy to call. If you aren't right on top of them and one dog hits it and drives out with it then he is the dog that is going to get the points, even though another dogs presence may have jumped the rabbit, this isn't always fair but I don't know of any other way to do it and still give jump points. This isn't going to always be 100% right but it is about the only way that this can be done in a consistent manner. If I have doubt as to which dog jumped the rabbit then I don't give any jump points. Sometimes you just can't tell which dog jumped the rabbit. I will be frank, what I have found by judging and being judged is that a lot of folks don't really know dogs, judges included.

Big Dog

You are right on Big Dog.
One thing that burns me up is example:
You are on a cast at 2:00 in afternoon & dogs are hunting & bam a hound takes out of brush full bore & soon the rest put in & when you sign the card No Jump is awarded only a strike & this has happened several times over the years. If the judge really knew hounds he would realize that time of day no rabbit is stirring around & had to have come from a setup in the bed. The judge always says I wan't sure if the rabbit was already on the move or the dog jumped it, DUH! That time of day that rabbit was sitting tight & the dog jumped it plain & simple. But hey I don't fuss cause I judge & I understand it is hard to get judges & you need to take care of them as best possible. Maybe it is our on fault, we should take those judges hunting with us & try to give them more hound experience I guess. Its tough to say, but it is a very inconsistant ruling overall.
I think it would be good for clubs to have a fun hunt a couple times a year & put a couple youngsters with an old timer to have a tune up.

Plow you are exactly right, it is one thing to pass the written test, but that doesn't mean squat when it comes to knowing dogs. I have been running beagles since I was 5 years old and I am 39 now. I have had some good ones and some bad ones and I can tell you exactly what they were doing about 95% of the time. I have a young guy that I have been training for about a year and a half now and he is really getting to know dogs. I was in a hunt not to long ago where two judges gave a dog a strike on a rabbit they never jumped. I knew the dogs were cold trailing and one of the older guys in the cast did too. I had a dog in the cast that will not give mouth until the rabbit is up, and he was right with those dogs the whole time with his tail going but he and another dog that didn't cold trail never opened their mouths. In about 3 minutes the judged called dead track and awarded strike points. I knew for a fact the dogs hadn't jumped not only because my dog didn't open, but because I could tell by the way the dogs were barking. Clubs need to do fun hunts and send inexperienced judges out with guys that are experienced in the rules as well as dogs and the judging will get a lot better.

Big Dog

big dog if the dog barked 3 time he had to follow the ddog he was on the clock as i'm sure u know u didnt say exactly how mnay other dogs harked in only urs didnt if 2 others harked in just an example and made a line of ????feet the judge might have thought the scenting was bad and ur dog needed mor scent to follow it >??have seen it happen is why i say this was a baby rabbit other dogs couldnt smel it but judge seen rabbit so nothing we could say.ur situation coulda been totally different but just a thought...what heard from handlers and whats done by dogs can be way different!u can never really judge from way back!!

I was on top of the judge on this one. We were in sceresa grass with snow on the ground and located on a hillside you could see forever. If the rabbit got up everyone could see it as we did all others. You could see just about the whole race from where we were located and cold actually see the rabbit out in front of the dogs most of the time, but on this particular race noone could ever see a rabbit. The dogs trailed about 75 yards and then shut up, and then one dog was awarded strike points. I and others were convinced that no rabbit was ever produced. All of the dogs had run good on the snow that morning so scenting wasn't an issue. The next rabbit that was jumped the dogs pounded. There was a young guy judging and he was getting a little pressure from the handler that owned the dog that was struck in so I think he just gave into the pressure. My dog ended up winning the cast so I didn't have a lot to complain about.(LOL)

Big Dog

oh ok seem u had it under control..i have seen a young judge effected before myself...i havent been judging long myself but not easily swayed from what i think ..as u said earlier young judges would do well on those fun hunts to have a older judge just to ask now what would u do now!

Without judges that know dogs, any type of field trial is doomed. In AKC Mid-West , we just try to get two good judges and give them total control. So it is extremely important that these guys know what they are doing. As far as giving credit for jump and strike; If I see a dog actually jump a rabbit , it will get score, but most of the time we have so many dogs to judge that once I'm sure all of the dogs in the pack have adequate hunt to them I want a rabbit up as soon as possible. It would be great to have enough time to see which hound was the best jump dog, but there just isn't enough time. We really aren't concerned about a strike. I can see where a strike would be important in coon hunting because coons are on the move and a bark is usually on a productive track. 90% of the time rabbits are going to have to be jumped out of thier bed, so in my opinion, credit should be given to the dog that actually jumped the rabbit, not the dog that opened up first on a cold trail or lucked up and got a sight chase because another dog jumped it for him. Most of our score comes from the chase; checkwork, line control, drive, etc. Again, the key is getting judges that know dogs.

Big Dog,
They trailed the rabbit 75 yards and you don't think they should have been awarded + strike points? How far do they have to go to convince you they have a line?

i have seen dogs lie for hundreds of yards. it is not how far they have to go, it is if they produce the rabbit or not. you will know when they have a rabbit and when they when they are lying. for me to plus a strike they have to prove to me they have a rabbit. i dont care how many dogs are barking or how far they go.

Exactly Gabe, the judge has to be convinced the dog has produced a line. They do not have to produce the rabbit, only convince the judge they have a runnable line. Sometimes I think the dogs aren't given the benefit of the doubt enough. I'm positive most of the dogs know a lot more than any judge. If a dog is smelling rabbit where no other dogs can smell it and is able to work the line. They shouldn't be minused for having a superior nose.

I will start by saying this is a debate so lets not take any of this personal. With that being said. KJohns you are using the term produce a line. Nowhere in the rulebook under strike does it mention producing a line. It says that a rabbit must be jumped or produced from a set up/bed in order to award strike points. If the rabbit wasn't produced then no strike point should be awarded. I have seen plenty of cold nosed dogs bump a feeder track for a long ways making good progress without ever jumping the rabbit. I have also seen many babbling dogs run like they were looking at a rabbit with the rest of the pack in tow not saying a word. On this particular day, the dogs did not jump the rabbit, they were dragging a trail where a rabbit had walked earlier but they definitely hadn't jumped him. Only two dogs even bothered to open and the rest of them were right there wagging there tails and working the trail with there mouths shut. My point is that a lot of people, judges included can't tell the difference between when dogs are trailing a rabbit and when they actually jump it and are running it. 9.5 times out of 10, I can, especially if any of my dogs are involved, and so can a lot of others that I know, but I know a lot of people judges included that will ask "do you think they got him up yet" because they don't know dogs well enough to tell what is going on. It is harder to do with strange dogs, but most of the time I can tell you right when the dogs jump the rabbit, You can hear it in their voices if you know what to listen for.


Big dog

Big Dog I am one of the judges your referring too....I felt that the dogs moved the rabbit far enough for a strike. They went straight to some rocks and shut off, thats why we scored a positive strike, not because we were so young and inexperienced....I have been participating in Little Pack hunts for 4 years. I didn't judge for 2 years because I didn't feel I was experienced enough. I feel that my judging partner and I know as much about judging as anyone including yourself....I would like you to know, I have owned dogs my entire life....I know little bit more about them than you are giving me credit...I didn't let any man influence me on scoring those dogs that day or any day! The man that you are referring to minused out with 13 seconds remaining in the cast, if he could have influenced me he would not have minused out...now would he.....[/b]

Big dog,
I think i might be one of the judges you are talking about.
It was a judgement call and we felt the rabbit was produced. In the 6 years I've been judging I have learned one thing, you can't please everone, so do the best you can, be honest, go by the rules and call it the way you see it. I judge every hunt I attend, never been protested,and most of the time I have to send at least one of my dogs while judging another cast to help get the hunt over early.
As for not knowing dogs, I've owned beagles for 22 years and in the 7 years participating in little pack we have produced 4 Grand rabbit champions,9 champions and the majority we raised ourselves.
So if I made a mistake I apologize, I just called it the way I saw it.
The other judge is one the best judges I know and he judges the dog not the owner.
If you are talking about a different cast disregaurd this reply.
See ya, John Maynard Triple M's Beagles