The American Beagler Forum

How close is to close? Obvious father x daughter.... What about niece to uncle? Anyone have any suggestions.

Niece and uncle should be all right. A father to a daughter is ok. Half brother to a half sister is ok. I had some great pups out of this cross. I had a full brother and sister bred once. They were defromed and all of the pups died. I don't think a mother to a son would work. You just try it out and see what works out.

I have a question. Does inbreeding cause deformatives or not. I had a mother/son crossing one time by mistake and their was nothing wrong with them. I bought a female one time that was a father/ daughter cross nothing wrong with her. A friend of mine had a male that was a full brother/sister cross and he was a better dog than his parents. The above post stated that the pup's were deformed, what caused this if inbreeding doesn't ? What causes dogs to have crook's in their tails ? I went to a mans kennel one time to look at some year old pups he had that were father/daughter cross. All but one of them had bad bites, one had a over bite (parrot mouth) and the other had a under bite it looked like a wild hog in the mouth. So right now by what i have personally seen for myself i am up in the air as far as what the answer is.

I have no problem breeding a father to daughter, if i need to lock qualities in but imho its more of the next 2 generation that will excell more so than cross a.I call it inbreeding not line line breeding...Some very sucessful houndsman have made some extremly tight crosses and reaped the benefits. And also several have done it and it did not work.I personally look at a pedigree with different intent than most......If his web site is up look at Dexter Reffitts pedigrees and u be the judge linebreeding or in- breeding.?

From my studies father to daughter and son to mother is OK. Brother to sister however seems to be to tight and really brings out harmful recessive traits. Here is the deal inbreeding or LINEBREEDING is done to bring out, preserve or increase some positive trait. Doing it with inferior hounds will only double down on the inferior traits. It should ONLY be done with an EXCEPTIONAL hound.

Some of the greatest hounds in today's running world have been linebred and borderline inbred. The point of linebreeding a hound is to sharpen the qualities that are desired. It takes a special line of hounds to make a man not want to add any additional traits but only to strenthen some and dilute others. ...... I have to say I like a good breeding plan
Bill Woods

m and m beagles wrote:How close is to close? Obvious father x daughter.... What about niece to uncle? Anyone have any suggestions.

It is natural to ask questions like these, but the not-so-simple truth is there is no "one" answer to any of these questions.

The biggest key to answering any question like this is coming to terms with what dogs are you talking about? A father-daughter inbreeding that might be "too tight" on a pair of related (but genetically-inferior) specimens might be the best way to go with a pair of genetically-superior specimens.

Even within the same litter, if you decide to inbreed one so-so daughter back to her father, you might tighten-up on what's worst in their gene pools ... and yet if you choose to breed her sister (the best female from that same litter) back to her father, this breeding might tighten-up on what's BEST in their gene pools.

This is where SELECTION comes in ... because selection is everything when making a breeding.

I will also say this: ALL of the really great, long-term breeders (of any breed of dog) are line- and family-breeders. There simply is no other way to isoloate and harness key genetic traits than by line- and inbreeding. No other way. Therefore, what the difference in results ultimately comes down to is that the best breeders simply make better line- and inbreeding selections than do the worst breeders. The worst breeders either forever "cross" their dogs (always wondering why they can't get consistency out of their random breedings) ... or the worst breeders simply in- and linebreed on the wrong dogs, isolating and harnessing all of the faults within the line, rather than all of the strengths.

An entire book could be written on this subject, but inbreeding and linebreeding will simply accelerate your efforts ... but whether you are accelerating into a brick wall ... or accelerating down a long road to success ... will depend entirely on your selection of which dogs you choose to in- and linebreed upon. It is not father/daughter, mother/son, half-brother/sister (or any other "magic breeding pattern") that is going to win the day for you as a breeder, it will all ultimately boil down to which dogs you plug into these formulas that will determine your success or failure. Thus the real breeding question is, have you, in fact, line- or inbred on truly excellent animals genetically ... or have you, in fact, bred two essentially mediocre (or even inferior) animals together, genetically.

Thus, at the end of the day, selection is everything ...




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mtnwaykennel wrote:Some of the greatest hounds in today's running world have been linebred and borderline inbred. The point of linebreeding a hound is to sharpen the qualities that are desired. It takes a special line of hounds to make a man not want to add any additional traits but only to strenthen some and dilute others. ...... I have to say I like a good breeding plan
Bill Woods

Good post Bill.



Jack



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Old negative me again!

I've not seen any more good come from inbreeding than just normal breed of a real good hound to another real good hound that both are what YOU like.

If you inbreed or too close, and which is which is anyones guess, just ask houndsmen and see how many different opinions you get on which is which. You BETTER be good at selection and be prepared to eliminate a large portion of your pups as many will be deformed or nuts. Sure will be expensive too as you will have to raise the pups to maturity to be able to see which are nuts or are too bad faulty. Good thing is you will be able to see deformities early and so eliminate those quickly, hopefully before any of your friends or those that might want to buy a close bred pup sees the ones you eliminated that were brothers or sisters to the one you want to sell them. (All goofy or deformed but the couple you kept is discouraging to a prospective buyer you see!) Hurts sales!!!

This method being a big, expert houndsman hard to come by knowledge is a joke and is told by those that sell dogs or by the folks that bought their dogs and want to believe rather than admit they were fooled. Mystery is used to to boost their sales and great reputation. Don't be fooled.

Bring those special secret knowledge inbred or close bred dogs down here and run them with those of us that laugh at this and see if those big name dogs embarrass our cold bred dogs. never happened yet and I don't think it will.

Travis a father daughter cross is what double is the little bitch that won 3 trails straight up at your club

Alabama John wrote:Old negative me again!

You're not negative sir, you're just ignorant.

Alabama John wrote:Old negative me again!
I've not seen any more good come from inbreeding than just normal breed of a real good hound to another real good hound that both are what YOU like.

Then you have not been associated with a truly good and consistent line of dogs ... and, given your outlook, this is not surprising.

Breeding "best-to-best" is good, but breeding best-to-best within a good family is even better. You might want to consider this also: just because "you" may not understand the subject of math doesn't mean "other people" don't understand math ... and similarly just because "you" don't understand genetics, and can't create a consistent line of dependable animals, doesn't mean "other people" aren't capable of doing this.

Alabama John wrote: If you inbreed or too close, and which is which is anyones guess, just ask houndsmen and see how many different opinions you get on which is which. You BETTER be good at selection and be prepared to eliminate a large portion of your pups as many will be deformed or nuts.

Sir, no disrespect, but I would never seek the opinion of an unsuccessful breeder dogs. I would only ask the opinion of someone who consistently and reliably produces excellent dogs.

Further, regarding what you just said about getting tons of dogs that are "nuts" or "deformed" from inbreeding, this is pure, fabricated malarkey. I have inbred and linebred for decades and almost never have deformities, and have not experienced one single dog that was "nuts." If you have gotten these things in your own breedings, then you are simply inbreeding on substandard animals. Again, it is all about selection first, and then line- and inbreeding on the right dogs.

Alabama John wrote: Sure will be expensive too as you will have to raise the pups to maturity to be able to see which are nuts or are too bad faulty. Good thing is you will be able to see deformities early and so eliminate those quickly, hopefully before any of your friends or those that might want to buy a close bred pup sees the ones you eliminated that were brothers or sisters to the one you want to sell them. (All goofy or deformed but the couple you kept is discouraging to a prospective buyer you see!) Hurts sales!!!

Basically, sir, I think you make stuff up as you go along. I think you have no real experience breeding a quality family of dogs, and you just repeat "general ignorance" on a subject you really know nothing about. The truth is, people who can't get consistently good results as breeders won't get any "sales" for very long. Standing the test of time as a breeder means producing good dogs, over and over again, for a long period of time.

And he simple truth behind all that is the fact ALL great, long-term breeders use line- and inbreeding to set the characteristics of their family of dogs. Otherwise they are playing guessing games. If you don't line- and inbreed, then you cannot be a longstanding, great breeder. It is that simple. The truth is every FAILURE as a breeder will tell you how "hard" it is to pick the right dogs ... and how "bad" it is to line- and inbreed (just as people with no aptitude for math tell you how "hard" and "impossible" figuring out math is for them) ... while the flipside to this is every SUCCESSFUL breeder is a master of selection and builds a linebred family around hand-selected individuals within his preferred breed type. But don't take my word for it, here are some articles that other great breeders have written about the subject:

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm
Linebreeding by Jerold S. Bell, D.V.M.

http://www.kristari.com/brackettplannedbreeding.pdf
Planned Breeding by Lloyd C. Brackett

These articles are compiled by Master Breeders of different breeds, but the principles they discuss are valid across all breed types. You don't seem to be the type to read much, or think very deeply, but others who are reading this might be benefitted by the above articles. Again, the simple truth is what linebreeding does (when done well) is to harness genetic excellence and reproduce it consistently, and these authors have bred more Champions in their preferred breed types than anyone else ... and so, unless you have too with your breed, you might want to listen more on this subject then talk.

Alabama John wrote: This method being a big, expert houndsman hard to come by knowledge is a joke and is told by those that sell dogs or by the folks that bought their dogs and want to believe rather than admit they were fooled. Mystery is used to to boost their sales and great reputation. Don't be fooled.

The only thing that is a "joke" is you confusing your ignorance for actual knowledge ... and the only one "fooled" by the subject of family breeding appears to be you.

In truth, no one can get a great reputation as a breeder, or get consistent sales to serious dogmen and women, unless they know what they're doing and unless they consistently and dependably produce good dogs. And the only way to get consistent results is by family breeding.

Alabama John wrote: Bring those special secret knowledge inbred or close bred dogs down here and run them with those of us that laugh at this and see if those big name dogs embarrass our cold bred dogs. never happened yet and I don't think it will.

There are no "special, secret dogs," there are only methods that can be used to isolate and harness the genetics of good dogs, once they crop-up. Good dogs may be where you find them, but the ability to consistently and dependably produce good dogs, is to be able to form a linebreeding program around the best of dogs, when they pop up, and try to capture these traits so that you can repeat them. Otherwise, all you're doing is crapshooting and playing guessing games when you breed dogs with a bunch of jumbled genetics.

It's all about focus. If you want to get beagles when you make a breeding, then focus on breeding beagles together. Otherwise, if you breed any old dog to any old dog, you will have no clue of what you're going to get. If you want to focus-in a little more and get good beagles, then you have to breed good beagles together. And, if you really want to focus-in, and get excellent beagles far more often than not, then you need to breed good individual beagles, from a good common family, if you want to be able to get "these same results" over and over again with any kind of consistency. This has to do with (1) proper selection (2) within the right family.

But the person who breeds withOUT regard to family will never have consistently-good results. He may get lucky now and then, but he will never be consistent. And the person who inbreeds on the wrong dogs will never have good results either: he may get terrible results on occasion.

Only the person who family breeds on the right dogs will rise above the average dogman as a breeder, and these are the only ones really worth listening to on this subject.

Jack



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Duke wrote:From my studies father to daughter and son to mother is OK. Brother to sister however seems to be to tight and really brings out harmful recessive traits. Here is the deal inbreeding or LINEBREEDING is done to bring out, preserve or increase some positive trait. Doing it with inferior hounds will only double down on the inferior traits. It should ONLY be done with an EXCEPTIONAL hound.

Litle Black Book---Jack

You. Sir, are just what I was talking about. Self announce yourself an expert for profit. Funny how all others share their knowledge including me, but you sell yours!
How much are you, the medical expert and breeding expert making off your Little Black Book? Like I said, be an expert and make money off those foolish enough to pay you!!! You, SIR, prove what I said.

Can a good dog come off inbreeding, sure, I know of a few pen bred dogs that are good dogs but the owner had to CULL WISELY. It usually goes something like this "My ol Susie dog got bred by her brother, uncle or whatever, when he dug under and they hung up. Cost too much to go to the Vet and get her aborted and don't want her spayed, so I guess I'll keep them and see how they turn out" Any of you boys want one?" Loud, Resounding Answer: NO! To think that is the way to go and that YOU must be more educated, smarter, more experienced, wiser, is pure nonsense. By far Beaglers that are more educated, experienced, wiser, etc. do not inbreed or close breed. The great majority of Beaglers don't believe in it so I'm in pretty good company and If I'm ignorant, so is 90 plus percent of Beaglers! Only 10 percent or less agree with you, so, WATCH OUT JACK< YOU MAY BE HURTNG BOOK SALES! Need to be a better politician! You say it is no mystery to it, but your ad says 20 years of BREEDING SECRETS! Secrets Jack! Come on.

If it was true, we, meaning me too, would all own hounds that were inbred and close bred.

Believe me, if that type breeding jumped and ran a rabbit better than others or what I have now, I would only have inbred, close bred, in my kennel. They don't so I don't!

Little Black Book
Thank you for your post.Although I have never met you you sound as if you are well versed and educated to the subject at hand.I've been keeping hounds for the past 44 years and have run them on most species of game chaseable from hare to bear.I never cease to be amazed at some of the convoluted ideas that many so called "dogmen" come up with.

Shady Grove, I didn't understand by your post. Do you like or dislike linebreeding?

Line breeding and inbreeding is exactly how we have all the various breeds we have today, how the different races of people came about and is done in the wild animal world. If you choose to do it, do it ! If you dont think its a good idea dont do it! If you own the dog its your choice.