The American Beagler Forum

One thing I have noticed from running dogs of all different backgrounds on hare in some of the worst conditions you could ask for is that a fast dog has an advantage over medium speed or slower dogs. It goes without saying that they still must have a good nose or all the speed in the world won't help them. What I am trying to say is that a good fast dog that can hang on to the line (rough dogs won't cut it) will bring more rabbits to the gun on those bad days than a good medium speed dog. It only makes sense that the closer they are to the rabbit, the more scent they are going to have to work with. On those realy bad days the scent is gone within a minute or less. I have a couple more conservative, cottontail bred dogs that have good nose and realy look good some days but when they gear down on tough running they usualy stall out or get down to a crawl. On the other hand, on tough running days my faster dogs are going to get up close to a rabbit sooner or later and then it's a race until you shoot the rabbit or the dogs make a mistake and let the rabbit get too far ahead of them.
I would be interested to hear everyone's opinion on this subject from your experience.

Tom, in my opinion you have graduated to the advanced course in hare hunting! It took me a long time to realize this but mainly because about 12 years ago I acquired the dog that taught me how to run a hare and do it right and he was fast and clean enough to run up close to the game so that not only was the scent better but the hare was forced to run straighter and not have time to pick his way along and pull his tricks. It takes a LOT of nose to push a hare like this under tough sub-zero conditions though and these hounds are harder to find than an honest politician! A fast, rough dog though is a waste of time when the thermometer takes a nosedive. If you've got a dog who can drive them on tough days I'm VERY interested in the details.

Tom, are you just trying to start something!!!lol

I agree wih you and you're reasoning on fast dogs. It is the same down here, even with Cottontails. Faster you push them, the less time for tricks, doubling back, etc. so its actually easier to keep them going without as many checks.

Negative is some will go to a hole, but only had that happen once this year and it was while hunting near a rocky mountain prone to holes.

I know you like fast dogs, have you ever had your dogs run down and catch a rabbit due to either speed or constant fast pressure? In or on snow?

Steve, I don't field trial so I haven't seen many dogs run but the best dog I ever saw run a rabbit belonged to a friend of mine. Her name was Sandy and she could run a hare faster than anything I have ever seen and never get very far off the line. I will never forget seeing her run one day when it was about 10 below, knee deep snow. We picked up all the other dogs because Sandy left them behind and they couldn't keep their own rabbit going very long. It was towards evening and Pete LaDue, Sandy's owner walked in and shot two rabbits in front of her in about a half hour. Pete came back to the road and sent me in there. I got in an old deer stand and wasn't there 5 minutes when Sandy came driving another hare past me. I shot it and caught her. When I got out to the road Pete's brother, a long time coonhunter who had come with for the first time rabbit hunting couldn't believe there was only one dog out there, he thought there were at least two running the whole time.
I've never seen anything even close to Sandy but I do have a daughter of hers that shows a lot of her mother from time to time.
Hey John, I can't afford to get in on that discussion! Tell you what, we have a nice five bedroom house with lots of good hare and cottontail hunting close by. Load up your dogs and come on up and if they can chase 5 hare in one day I will put you up for free and feed you pretty good too! You can't have my old truck though! lol

Tom I agree on the fast dog in ultra bad conditions, but it must be able to hang on with few or no long checks, I hunt in 2 to 3 feet of snow all winter and more then my share of sub zereo days, I find that it is the best to run only one dog on those days, I hate to leave any of my dogs home when I go out but after 40 plus years of hunting on this stuff I have figured out to solo on the really bad days. JMHO. Hare

Hare Hunter wrote:Tom I agree on the fast dog in ultra bad conditions, but it must be able to hang on with few or no long checks, I hunt in 2 to 3 feet of snow all winter and more then my share of sub zereo days, I find that it is the best to run only one dog on those days, I hate to leave any of my dogs home when I go out but after 40 plus years of hunting on this stuff I have figured out to solo on the really bad days. JMHO. Hare

ok ok ok I've never hunted hare so be patient with me, Im currious why you would say you run your dog solo in bad conditions?

Tom, sounds like that Sandy bitch would have done fine in the trials too. I've seen darned few hounds who could run like that and many times when I had one, the rest of the dogs in the pack would break down and lose the hare while the good dog was half a lap ahead of the rest running fast and steady. I'm curious if you know the breeding on the Sandy bitch. A buddy of mine has been fortunate enough to have several top snow hounds in the last 5 or 6 years who could drive a hare well below zero. All from different bloodlines. One died at a little over a year from his stomach rolling inside him, blocking his intestines. He was off Branko's Big Leroy Brown and a bitch that went back to Getemout Jim Beau and Greenbrier's Old Black Magic. Another was from the Northway line- outstanding bitch but got so bad about running deer that he eventually got rid of her. He still has two from the Jim Beau line and bitch lines that I'd never heard of but out of Nova Scotia. One lacks a little foot but great nose. The other is about as good as any I've seen but too fast for my 13"s to keep up with. He's gone through a lot of dogs to find these though, and paid big money a couple of times for dogs that proved to be not worth feeding.

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Hare Hunter,

I like yourself have never ran hare. But when I read the post the first reason that came to my mind was to take out the over-anxiousness and the competetiveness.

I know from living in Tn. and running with horrible scenting conditions that a man could get some great running by leaving all but one at home.

All of the hounds seemed to settle down more and stay closer on the track when run solo.

Don't know that that is his reasoning on the solo running but that is the impression that I had come to mind.

Dale, I can't speak for Hare Hunter but in deep powder snow, the lead dog collapses snow all around the track making it unrunnable for any hound trailing behind. That's another reason that an overrunning hound also loses the track as the scent is pretty well gone once he goes off the end. There are a lot of days though when 4 or 5 well-matched hounds will combine for a great run as long as they'll cooperate.

there are fast dogs and there are good fast dogs.. a good fast dog is fast because of his nose... ive had good dogs that i called fast and also some i called medium .the deeper the snow the more advantage the fast dog has.. i dont think its any coincidence that best dogs ive ever seen also some of the fastest.. ive used lots of long legged cross bred dogs. some of these are very fast. only a few id call real clean running. ive bred them on purpose to get a dog to handle deep snow.. i had a dog once kind of average nose but extreme hunt that exceled on crust because she would get right on hare quick...she would kill herself to get to them where she could smell it.. i didnt like this dog much cause she couldnt even smell a hare when it was cold... she was a machine if good running.. ive had others just very accurate that made very few losses.. anyways i like them medium to fast with the least possible losses.. and dog thats extra fast on bare ground may be just right in deep snow.. how fast is that real fast dog if he loses too much.. i know what u mean about pushing them out of thickets. tough to shoot when u cant see 6 feet.. ill bet any of u that my hounds cant catch 5 hare in one day -ill bet my house - truck anything ive got.. .. but seen 2 dogs that in great conditions made hare squeal that wasnt shot and a couple times made them dive under snow .. to avoid beeing caught. -been lots of times that i couldnt shoot cause dogs were too close to hare.. - thats fast enuff for me.. and these 2 dogs best ive seen in thirty years. i called them fast.. they were different type dogs - one long legged cross breed and pretty rough ..the other just had a super nose and almost never lose.. steve c i wish u would have your buddy give me some pointers - to have several snow dogs in a few years he must be doing something right- is he buying pups or broke dogs - where is deer runner now.. i could use her- no deer where i hunt in winter - anybody has a deer runner thats good dog send it here ill work on deer breaking in off season. pete

Also a very good point Steve that I did not mention or think about at the time I responded to the post.

It would be the same as running in the early part of season in Tn. with dry leaves all over the ground in a hardwood thicket.

The rough hounds would destroy the track by stirring all the leaves then the close hounds really have their work cut out for them.

You caught me sleeping. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

There is more to running well under poor scenting conditions then just nose alone. Just as there is more to foot speed then just nose alone. How many times have you seen a hound takeing up the rear of a pack and then when conditions got poor that same hound was leading the pack? It happens often. Experiance, intelligence, desire as well as scenting ability all contribute to the speed at which a hound is able to run accurately.

If a hound is unable to keep it's rabbit up and moveing under poor scenting conditions we would classify them as slow.

Naturally a fast hound has an advantage over a slow hound. However, we describe fast as on a good scenting day the hound will go so fast as to catch or hole the rabbit too quickly to provide good sport; anything less then that and we classify the hound as medium speed so long as the rabbit is kept up and moveing on poor scenting days.

If conditions are such that one hound can catch up to their rabbit for a good fast chase while other hounds cannot move their rabbit then I would have to conclude that those other hounds are faulty. Conditions can't be bad if a hound, any hound, can run his game fast and accurately. Now Ive seen where a great hound can run at a faster pace under the right conditions then his packmates whom were good hounds but still those others could run their rabbit because they were good hounds.

We hear a lot about fast hounds but rarely do we hear that they catch or hole their rabbit quickly. If the hound is accurate but doesn't catch or hole the rabbit quickly then he is medium speed. If the hound runs at a vary fast pace but ends up checking often then he is not fast. He is simply running too fast for his nose.

The reason I solo on loose deep snow is the "cave in" factor, the lead dog pretty well covers up the scent as the snow caves in as he runs thru it leaving very little or no scent for the second hound or trailing hounds. Now I am talking about hounds that run to catch, they need scent to do that, if your dogs are competive and not true me too hounds they will fight for the lead so they can smell it. I am referring to only the extremely cold dry conditions. If they are fighting for the lead then you will have more breakdowns, most of my dogs slot up and run well in a pack if they can smell the rabbit (hare) but they will cause some problems as far as a smooth run with minamum break downs if it is real tuogh. I find this a good time to solo and a reason to leave some behind as it benifits the dog and the hunter. As I said earlier, I don't like to leave any dogs home when I go and they sure don't like to be left behind either. (Just ask my wife LOL), they usually voice their displeasure about being left home. Hare P.S. Hope this clears up my point of view. Everyone is welcome to theirs and where you hunt and the conditions should dictate how you like to do it with your dogs.

Joe, I think there's a difference between what we call "fast" on hare vs fast on rabbit. Even the fastest dog will seldom catch a hare and they of course don't hole unless wounded. I've had a few caught over the years but usually as a result of cheating. One cross bred hound I had caught quite a few hare but he did it by running silent once he caught sight of the hare. Not good sport. A few of the great snow hounds I've seen were extremely fast but if they ever caught any hare it was only after a long extended race. The hare would run fast and straight and would cross clearings they wouldn't ordinarily cross. We got a lot of chances at shooting these hare but they were going so fast there was a lot more powder burned than hare put in the bag. Still good sport. Pete, my friend Mike sold the deer runner to a fellow who eventually lost her on a deer chase. His method of finding good snow hounds is about the same as mine. Find a serious hunter in snow country and go on a hunt with them. If you see something you like, make an offer or book a pup or breeding. Some don't work out for one reason or another. One of the two good ones he's got right now could use a little more foot but she has a great nose and seems to smooth out a pack when you put her in. She was a field trial reject because although she had everything you'd want in a hunting dog, she couldn't compete for the front in a trial and therefore couldn't win. It may not be fair but that's the way it goes, and she was bought at a bargain price. Dogs such as these are relatively common if you keep your eyes open but sometimes they have real faults too. A lot of junk gets offered up for sale too.

Hounds will run hare faster then they do rabbit because they can. The hare is bigger and leaves more scent and runs a straighter course. Naturally hare don't go to hole but still a hound who goes so slow as to not keep the hare up is slow. Naturally if all one runs is hare then the goes to hole method of gaugeing hound speed won't work for gaugeing if the hound is fast or medium speed.