cold trailing

[Joe West]

Swing: from where in any of my posts did you get the impression that a hound who works a line for two minutes is cold trailing?

Chris: You've never seen in any of my posts where I've defended the field trial hounds. I'm not a field trialer. You have a couple of our pedigree's, that look like field trial doings to you?

TomMN: it's been our experiance that the rabbits will not run until the snow crusts so they can stay up on it. Have never had much luck with hare either when the powder is over the hounds head cause they can't swim fast enough to make a chase of it. I reckon any hound with a lick of sense will use the footprints in the snow to their advantage, BUT, they should be checking what they see with their nose. Ever had a rabbit run under the snow?

[Chris]

Joe, my statements about the trial trend wasn't aimed at you or your hounds, it was aimed at whomever trials and doesn't hunt their dogs in tough conditions. The impact of trialing can't be denied.

[snowshoehareguide]

joe ive never seen a hare run under the snow i have seen them dive under and come out several feet away id call it more like swimming then running . im pretty sure it was same hare that came out that went in . they were afraid for their lives ive owned two dogs in my life that could make them do this .they also would make them squeal like they were wounded .now see im splitting hairs . i could not see them running under the snow and thats what you asked. my goal is to breed some dogs that can make them dive into crust . fluffy snow isnt so hard . as much as a hare can stay on top he doesnt like it if he sinks in at all and if dog is blowing thru it it really freaks them out . both these dogs did a lot of cold trailing . id guess youd call it working a line but id call it cold trailing . if i was cat or coyote hunting and saw a rabbit track id go home and get them and put them on that old track . deep fluffy snow . hare wasnt far away and i encouraged this cold trailing that you would call a fault. ive had several dogs that on fresh snow would open on first track the came to and quickly sort it out and jump the hare. i did not and will not ever call this a fault id call them good hounds. i respect your opinion and i think you are trying to do good for the beagle breed but i think this calling cold trailing a fault is part of the reason we have so many hot nosed dogs today. for the kind of hunting i do a hot nosed beagle is another word for worthless. . i do not like a babeling dog . if you bark you better produce . when you say old tracks (whats that ? )if i include my treeing walkers bear and cat dogs id say an old track is two seconds to three days old. if you dont think a hound can run a three day old track youve led a sheltered life. two day old tracks in good conditions is common . i admit three days is extreme but ive seen it once. there was some blood and thats why he could go on it three days later. ive seen them run track that i knew was two days old and if you were ther i bet you couldnt tell they werent jumped. ive also seen the days they couldnt run a track a half hour old. these are big hounds on bear or cat that leaves a lot more scent than a hare but its the same thing . if you expect a hound to open on a track thats ten seconds old on crust and its cold and the winds blowing why shouldnt he open when its 30 degrees on fresh snow on a track thats may be a few hours old. there is a lot more scent in that hours old track. i think some beaglers need to stop listening to the guys at the trials and just open their eyes a little . for instance i hear a lot of talk about line control . this is crap. do you think a dog only runs a track where rabbits feet hit the ground. i guess some do but i dont want them . good dogs run body scent ask any bird hunter if he wants his dogs running foot scent. my bear dogs smell brush and limbs when cold trailing . when bear is jumped they can be 50 feet off the bear track maybe farther. ive watched fox hounds run without a loss and they were off the track more than on it and i think best running dogs ive evr seen were foxhounds. beagles are minature foxhounds. ok i dont want to make the whole beagle world mad at me but i say that line control is only an issue if dogs are losing the hare. if they arent then line control dogs are wasting their time . i see this as a big reason that many cottontail dogs dont do good on hare . a hare is no faster than a cottontail. he runs in spurts and he can really leap. when hes bounding ten or 12 feet and a dog is really worrying about his line control we are in trouble . if its tough running and you let that track get more than a few seconds old and you cant cold trail it how in th hell are we going to run it . i guess all im asking is for everybody thats haveing a little trouble with dogs running on the tough days stop and ask why. and question some of this stuff that is handed down from field trial people. dog that runs everyday is my FC pete

[TomMN]

Pete, I have seen some of the things you are talking about. I have followed my walkers after a lion and their tracks are sometimes 20 yards or more away from the lion track. Their tracks only cross every 50 - 100 yards, yet they are running like they are chasing a deer.
One thing I have noticed while rabbit hunting in the dead of winter is that when the dogs are running a hare and the track bogs down, many dogs will give up and go and find another hare to chase. A good "cold trailer" will keep the track going and will soon have the same hare up and running again. I have an old female that is good at sticking with the same rabbit all day long while the other dogs keep switching from one hot track to another.
I guess what I am trying to say is for hare hunting a dog should not lose the track as long as the hare is still alive. If you don't have a dog with a lot of nose, they will be losing a lot of them when the going gets tough. Heck, even the best dogs that I have seen have a lot of trouble keeping a track going on the realy bad days.

[snowshoehareguide]

tom i agree i like to be near my dogs when they jump the hare . i like to just listen to them run and normally wont shoot hare first circle. this doesnt work well when dogs switch tracks they get farther and farther away. best dogs ive owned would know exactly where they crossed fresh track and go back to it as soon as hare they were running was dead. a real good dog can really train a man . the great thing about hare is they dont go down a hole and your right dog should run it till you shoot it or catch them off . i had this happen once this year . i am pretty sure my hunters killed every hare i started all day . one ran for hours and i was almost hoping that theyd switch on that one . i was standing in one spot and a warm day but was begiining to get cold id stood there so long . this same hare came by me 5 times had some tufts of hare sticking out on side and was whiter than most.and when it was shot i went and looked to see if it was same one. he seemed to be bullet proof and was shot at a lot . i had as much fun as hunters that day and didnt fire a shot. the days dogs dont run good i dont have much fun no matter how many they shoot. and sometimes theyll kill more on a bad day . strays. and they dont miss many . im trying to cut down on these days. need dogs with more nose. where do you find them in MN ? im not trying to start a war with field trialers. if best trial dogs were best hunting dogs then id say trials were perfect. thats the goal that all hunters and trialers should be working on. i know many trialers that hunt hard in the winter. a lot of them use different dogs. some trialers are breeding a ton of dogs and dont hunt at all in the winter. what happens to all these dogs. ? anyways if you are breeding some beagles that can do it on the tough days contact me . if you know of some bloodlines that are producing colder nosed dogs id like to hear about them . pete

[Joe West]

snowshoehareguide: I was refering to rabbits running under snow. I haven't ever seen a hare do it but I've seen rabbits run from brush pile to brush pile under the snow.

Bear and cat are different game alltogether from rabbit. The amount of scent they leave is much more then even a hare, by comparison a hare leaves relatively nothing compared to bear or cat. There is also a scarcity of bear or cat as compared to rabbit populations and although I don't hunt either by hound it could be that they were bred to cold trail because that line that's 24 hours old is the only line within miles and it is the only way to find the game. Not so for hare or rabbit. If a cold trialer takes a line that a rabbit laid down the night before while out feeding the hounds will have to run the whole length of that line while a rabbit sits tight close by. Add to that the fact that there is way less scent for a hare compared to a bear or cat and even less for a rabbit and then again a hare or rabbit while out feeding never goes in a straight line but goes this way and that and crosses his own trial many times and you end up with a mess and that doesn't even include breeding season when the buck might go for long distances. The big hounds are a different breed then a beagle and their intended uses are not the same even though they are scent hounds. I know nothing of the big hounds beyond that.

Line control refers to staying in constant contact with the line of scent. Certainly there are those days when the scent is not where the rabbits feet hit the ground but due to wind may be a couple to several feet away from where the rabbits feet actually contacted the ground. Still there is a line to be ran and the line control you have herd of refers to staying in constant contact with that line where ever it is. No hound can make progress on a line of scent they are not in contact with. I've seen hounds fifty yards off the line tounging away while not in contact with the line making a big loop in the hopes of hitting the line again. We refer to them as tree knockers. Sometimes they can get away with it on hare but on rabbits they are lost. Again I say no where did I say that a 10 or 12 second old trai is cold trailing. Line control (staying in constant contact with the line of scent) is always an issue for any hound. If they can't keep contact with the line they can't be running it. The line varies with the conditions but there is always a line of differing configurations and locataions; without it the game cannot be ran. Don't confuse a hound who controls the line with a hound who dies on the line.

Many of the terms you are using are filed trial doings. I've never used the term "hot nosed" and not sure I have a clear picture of it's meaning. Line control is a term that's been distorted by some filed trials and used to produce specialists that waddle along never moveing an inch from where the rabbits feet hit the ground. Naturally such a hound would have difficulty at the least with a hare, rabbit too.

It is much easier for a hound to switch from rabbit to hare then it is to switch from hare to rabbit. That is, the hound who has ran rabbit his entire life will find switching to hare much easier then the hound whos ran hare his whole life will find it switching to rabbit. Only the best hounds can switch from hare to rabbit; not so vice versa. The rabbit hounds you've seen that cannot run hare after a reasonable adjustment time have a fault that's preventing them from doing so. That fault will also show when they run rabbit.

One more thing. Foxes stink to high heaven. Even I can smell them in the woods at times so I'm sure the hounds have no trouble at all. With that much scent the line is sure to be broader under certain conditions. With that said though it's also worthy to note that there are hounds who will "me too". You'll never convince me that 20, 30 or even 50 hounds on a hare all have the scent. There just isn't enough scent there to survive that many hounds trampleing it. Some have scent and others are "me tooing" To find out which just get in front of the hare and turn him and then watch which hounds know where the rabbit turned. If none of the hounds know where the rabbit turned then in addition to "me tooers" they also lack line control. Now let me head one thing off before it starts. Certainly there are times when a hounds momentum will carry him past where a rabbit makes a 90 degree turn BUT he'll know just exactly where that is and will near turn himself inside out trying to make that turn with the rabbit. At the vary least he'll know where the turn occured. If they run past the point of the turn seemingly not even realizing where the turn occured and once they realize they have no scent they put their nose down where ever that is and start searching there instead of going back to the point they lost contact with the line they are not in control of the line.

[snowshoehareguide]

joe your right bear fox coyote leave lots of scent . cats are comparable to hare . if they are sinking into snow they leave plenty of scent . they have big feet and are adapted to hunting hare and rabbit and will get on top of snow almost as easily as a hare. a small cat will walk on top of any snow that holds a hare up. ive learned a lot about scent and conditions by hunting bobcats and i think a good bobcat dog is probably the hardest thing there is to find. the next hardest i think is a real rabbit dog and alot of the reason is what youve said not alot of scent. i think we agree on a lot of things but one thing i doubt you will ever convince me of is that cold trailing is a fault. say its 0 degrees it got 20 or 30 below last night . the snow is crusty . the wind is blowing just a little. how many dogs do you have that can run on that ?ive had a few in my life that could and they all would cold trail on a good day. lets say its been getting down below zero every night for a week and hasnt snowed. there are tracks everywhere. do you have a lot of dogs that can run on this.? lets say the ground is frozen and its bare ground. the leaves are fluffy dry and swirling in the wind . they are so dry that they swirl from the dogs running by. how are the dogs running today? you said you didnt use the term hot nosed dogs or what it meant. what it means to me is dogs that cant run almost every day. if its often too cold too wet too dry etc than i call them hot nosed dogs. 90% of the beagles ive seen were hot nosed. ive seen a few dogs that would run a hare almost every time i hunted. i will always say ALMOST . i judge all dogs by the percentage of days that they do a good job. it is not all their nose. some of it is a dog having gears and be willing to slow down on the tough days. some dogs with average noses learn to run on tough days . the best dogs ive seen showed their nose very young . it was obvious. some i started on tame rabbits and some would run that rabbit thru buildings on concrete. if they can run on concrete they wont have much problem with snow. if a dog can run a hare on crust when its 0 why wouldnt he cold trail on packy snow a track thats several hours old . i think we need the cold trailers. ive had several dogs that on fresh snow when theres not a real lot of tracks would open the first track they came too. they had this hare up quickly . there was no confusion . what difference does it make if tracks cross while hare is feeding dont tracks cross each other all the time when hare is running. ive seen them run an hour in a fir thicket and didnt leave one acre . how many times have these tracks crossed? if you or anybody you know has any dogs that cold trail a hare that you dont want please let me know i think i can find homes for them . im not talking boo hooing idiots that only cold trail but dogs that cold trail it up and jump it . i find that these dogs are the same ones that can run in the conditions i mentioned above. i think if a dog can smell a hare on the crust when its cold he has to have a better nose than most beagles ive seen. thats what im looking for .i appreciate any info i can get on who has dogs like this that are reproducing, i want to locate some like minded people to breed some dogs . the goal is a dog that can run everyday. if you are interested in dogs that run a hare everyday please go to http://groups/yahoo.com/groups/snowdawgs joe you are invited to join we dont agree on everything and thats ok. you said you bred dogs for hunting and thats what im looking for. trialers are welcome too but dogs i want to develop do not have to compete with any other dogs they only have to compete with the weather and conditions and the rabbit or hare. i think weve done the beagle breed a disservice by breed ing dogs to compete against each other. i know if you are winning trials you probably wont agree but if youve seen too many dogs that couldnt run cause of poor running conditions than maybe you should join my club pete[/url]

[Chris]

Pete brought up the same thing that I did 10 or 12 posts ago. About why a dog would open on a fresh (hot) track in real tough going and not on an older track in real good going? That older track in real good scenting conditions obviously has more scent than a hot track, when most dogs can't smell enough to open, right? The key being the amount (strength) of the scent. And, if it's your contention that a 'hot' (newer) track always smells more than a 'cold' (older) track... why is it that some beagles simply can't smell a 'hot' track during real tough scenting conditions (when you JUST saw the rabbit and put the dog on the line)?

Can anyone answer this for me?

[Joe West]

The opossite of a hot nose is not a cold nose, it's a powerful nose. The reason a hound who can trail under difficult conditions won't cold trail under good conditions is because he can tell the age of the track. I don't know how they do it, no one does, but they do it. That's part of the majic of hounds, they can do things that we can't. There are many hounds who have powerful noses and who also DO NOT cold trail. Scenting seems to follow certain weather patterns but there are times when conditions seem ideal to the eye but when conditions are poor. One such time would be when a thunder storm is moving into the area. Often when a thunder head moves in scenting drops off considerably for reasons that are unseen. Certainly cold and ice have an adverse effect on conditions normally but the cold you are speaking of has a drying effect that takes the moisture out of the air and that more then anything probably is what makes scenting under extreme cold conditions difficult. That and the hounds olfactory glands freeze. The ice is not porous and the smooth surface probably does not allow for the scent to stick. Add a bit of wind and the scent is simply blown away. I reckon my hounds have as good a nose as any but There are conditions in which no hound can run. In fact there are areas known as dead zones which for no apparent reason hold no scent at any time of the year in any conditions. At other times, even under frozen conditions scenting just seems to be much better then one would think possible. If you are asking if I have hounds who can constantly run under conditions which no other hound is capable of running under then the answer is no, and neither can a cold trailer. I think we judge hounds nearly the same. I would say that we judge hounds by the percentage of their rabbits that they can account for under all conditions. Account for means running till shot, holed or caught; and we never shoot a rabbit until it's ran at least a full circle before we even think about setting up for him.

About the tracks crossing each other: Yes they cross each other all the time when the chase is under way but thats quite a bit different then an old trial isn't it?

If I get a cold trailer I'll keep you in mind when I cull him. Can't see keeping a cold trailer when there are hounds available who are capable of running under difficult conditions who don't cold trail.

I tried the link but it didn't work.

The disservice the trials have done is not following their own proceedure for judgeing. If they had then things would be way different. The trial I went to this year one of my hounds made winners pack, if I had been judgeing that hound would have been picked up and two others that were picked up would have stayed down for at least more a of a look. We never consider trial results when judgeing a hound.

Chris: you only just saw the rabbit you can't tell about the smelling part you have to rely on the hounds, they are the only true experts on the smelling part.

[steve]

Pete and TomMN I also hnt hare here in Minnesota. question I have for both of you is have you ever had the hare shut off the scent. Example say hare is brought to the gun and the gunner misses when dogs come through on the line they seem to stand on their heads some times 30 to 75 yads later they can pick the track up again and some times they can't . MY hunting partner and I have discussed this and both agree that when a hare is frigthened it is able to shut the scent off. what are your thoughts on this

[Redtick]

I think cottontails can shut their scent off when frightened. I have seen it occasionally in other game animals. I don't understand how this can be done but I am confident it does. I may start another thread on the topic.

[TomMN]

Pete, beagles that can run every day are just as hard to find here as anywhere else. I have a male that I got from Joe Parrino in New York out of his Hunts Creek Ben that I like. Here is Joe's web site http://huntscreekbeagles.homestead.com/ ... agles.html
A buddy of mine had a Branko bred female that could run a hare good even when it was below zero. I have been looking at Chase's Crockett and his sire Branko's Red Baba Don over there in Vermont. Do you know anything about them?
Steve, I don't know what you are talking about, I never miss. OK, I have seen that happen many times. I don't believe a hare or any other animal can shut off there scent. I can't explain why it happens. My theory is that the dogs just quit and start looking for a dead rabbit when they hear me shoot, never suspecting that the rabbit may still be running. It may be closer to the truth to say that they have learned to take cover when they see me pointing a gun (lol).

[tnbeagleman]

to snowshoehare, Joe West, Chris and Tom It is good to see that people can have discussions without getting ugly, You guys can disagree without being silly and I wish others would learn from it , I have read these post and agree some and disagree some but I try to keep an open mind and I don't feel like you all are tring to jam it down my throat . Thanks

[Joe West]

tnbeagleman: Your right! this is how discussions are supposed to be and how we can learn from each other. It's a discussion I am enjoying. They are good guys; I hope we disagree on other things so we can do it again

[snowshoehareguide]

when you shoot at a hare that dogs have been running good and they cant smell it alll of a sudden ive blamed it on the burned gunpowder. sometimes this could explain it and sometimes not as ive seen it happen when i didnt get any shot any where near the rabbit track. ive seen this happen with all kinds of game and it something i dont have any answer too . best dogs ive ever hunted with have done this but i guess not as often as the average dogs. .i hunt bear and have hunted coon alot with strike dogs they ride on top of truck and bark when they get scent . ive seen them strike a track 1/4 mile from the rd many times. ive seen bear dogs strike a bear track i knew was 12 hours old. ive also seen a bear or coon cross the rd and drive right over and no bark. when this happens i continue on for aways come back in a few minutes and normally they strike and run as normal. what about when its all crust and cold . you can see a hare and dogs cant run it . make that hare run a few feet and same dogs will run it decent . this is easier to explain than the one thats jumped and running and you shoot and they loose. i saw a program about blood hounds on tv they were tracking a woman that had been kidnapped on the intrstate. they would stop at exits and let dog smell around . dog indicated the exit they got off. this track was 3 weeks old. they gave up the search and later found this womans body a few hundred yards from where they quit. this kind of thing fascinates me. this track was 3 weeks old and dog was able to follow the scent of a woman in a car on the interstate. i just give this as an example of the ability of a dog too smell and why a human can never totally understand it . ive followed trail of a wounded bear with dog on a leash lots of times. three days later was longest i ever was able to follow. one or two days is fairly common. i think dog is following the blood trail. the smallest drop of blood the dog can detect. my very un scientific theory is blood is a solid an scent is a gas. thats why scent can dissapate so quickly. these blood hounds suposedly are tracking tiny bits of skin shed by people at all times. ive never tried crossing a blood hound with a beagle but may be worth a try. ever read about the great cold trailing dogs out west tracking lions on bare ground. they will follow days old track . one thing ive noticed is best scenting is when it is not evaporating . dry is no problem when it stays dry. if ground is wet and drying up scent disapears quickly. when its windy same thing. ever been running on wet packy snow and it begins too cool off and dogs turn on like you turned on a switch. i cant believe these are the same dogs now running without a loss and i think its cause the scent is not evaporating. there are a hundred different reasons why scenting can be good or bad . im hoping somebody can explain this holding scent theory to me. i had an old fashioned kind of blood hound looking dog once that would lick the leaves and brush on an old track. sometimes after doing this hed open and take this track out and jump it . other dogs didnt have a clue it was there. and over the years ive had quite a few dogs that could do this kind of thing . not lick the leaves but either run or cold trail when others couldnt. this has always fascinated me. i like cold trailing, cold nosed dogs. they have shown me things that i still cant believe after seeing it over and over. pete