The new 13 and 15 measuring thread

[yellowdog]

aaron said to make a new one and keep it civil so here it is if you wanna debate keep it clean and no personnal attacks..have at it

[Bryan]

The last I read it this morning it had more than 120 replies and over 3000 views. I think it will be remembered for a while.

[smoss]

The last I read was at 10:00 last night. I didn't have time this morning. Now I got home from work and its gone. Did anyone have any other ideas beside the laser measuring for a new solution. It was a very good thread, I believe alot of beaglers have been on both sides of the fence with a small hound and a borderline one. I was looking forward to hopefully someone, having a solution for the measuring stand the was it is now. Maybe someone will have a new idea. Shawn

[Ohiohntr]

I've got nothing....Just trying to figure out what I'm going to do tonight since Aaron took all the good threads away.

Guess I am heading back to the mall to people watch till the running gets better.....I feel like 46 1/2 hours of my life just got deleted.

[smoss]

I haven't watched TV in two days. Now I guess i'm back to channel surfing.

[greenbay]

Most of us would like to see the AKC get more involved at field trials. However, this is not their policy. The AKC will NOT intervene unless a complaint is registerd. Example: A dog could be 18 inches high and be measured into the 13" class with a rep standing right there. The rep would not say one word. He would not get involved unless someone registerd a complaint. I do not agree with this particular policy, but that is the way it is.

How about this: The AKC holds an annual, open, forum meeting for each association in the United States. At this forum, we the beaglers, (without us there is no AKC) voice our opinions concerning matters that we feel need to be revised or visited. Example: Measuring (I bet you knew that was coming) Discuss all the pros and cons of measuring with intentions that positive revisions will arise. We can write on this board until we get calluses on our fingertips, but will it do any good?

I will write to the AKC and tell them to read this link....................

[warddog]

What happened to the last thread as it had some very good debate once it got past those thinking there was finger pointing and onto the real issue at hand of not applying the rules of measuring dogs as written. The pictures posted told the entire story in the eyes of us who do not trial and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see 15" dogs in the 13" class. Now, how this could happen with reps right there tells me that it is all about the money with total disregard to enforcing the rules as written. With the economy the way it is I'll stand back on the side lines and lead yells before I donate to an organization that will not enforce it's own rules. Been there, done that in both PKC and UKC coon hunts and got out due to the bickering and cheating. Love listening to the hounds strike and tree but hate the handlers calling them off someone elses dog. I can turn em loose at home, listen to the music and not cost me a dime and if I want drama, I stay home and listen to my wife.

[tinymwoods]

This problem occurs in every format. I have a dog that pushes on 15". He was measured in at a UKC hunt by a state rep at 14 7/8". He was measured at another hunt at 14 3/4". This hound is alot closer to the 14 7/8" or 15" mark. I took the judges measurement and ran my hound. I had no choice. If he had been measured out by the MOH that day, I would have had to take that decision as well. It's all up to our MOH, Breed Inspectors, Judges etc. to comply with the rules and measure correctly. What they say then goes, like it or not. One thing that was mentioned on the forbidden post was about getting someone to measure a hound before they become FC. This is not a good idea. If 10 judges have measured this dog in, and the person doing it for the FC title has a personal problem with the owner, they can strip the hound of all the ligitimate hard work it has done. One person does measure different from another. They measure in different spots, different poses or lack of, and so forth. An accurate system is needed, but until then we have to take what we have and just run the dogs.

[ncbeagler]

I know judges that are members at different associations.I know in the one association entries can be a problem judges there measure behind the withers.In other areas of the country they drop the bar as AKC calls for on the withers.The UBGF if you look at their dogs have 15's that are smaller than some of the 13's I seen in some associations.Typically with many gunners choosing the northern bred hounds that have a proven track record of accomplishment the true 13 can be difficult to obtain.If a class doesn't make then people have wasted their time going.Sometimes as few as 6 dogs show up.If I had my choice I rather do it right but I rather run against a oversizer so at least the class makes.Guys that have been around a long time can spot the 13 /12 er,13 7/8er 14 incher pretty much without a stand.I have ran against over sized dogs myself and like Green Bay felt short changed.Nothing personal we need to do the right thing.Steve C

[ncbeagler]

[quote="greenbay"]Most of us would like to see the AKC get more involved at field trials. However, this is not their policy. The AKC will NOT intervene unless a complaint is registerd. Example: A dog could be 18 inches high and be measured into the 13" class with a rep standing right there. The rep would not say one word. He would not get involved unless someone registerd a complaint. I do not agree with this particular policy, but that is the way it is.

How about this: The AKC holds an annual, open, forum meeting for each association in the United States. At this forum, we the beaglers, (without us there is no AKC) voice our opinions concerning matters that we feel need to be revised or visited. Example: Measuring (I bet you knew that was coming) Discuss all the pros and cons of measuring with intentions that positive revisions will arise. We can write on this board until we get calluses on our fingertips, but will it do any good?

I will write to the AKC and tell them to read this link....................[/quote] JOE OFFERS SOUND ADVICE LISTEN UP.

[BuschBound]

When a handler brings a dog that is a borderline dog 13 or 15" be prepaired to go home or run the next day... A lot of clubs now days some worse than others will let you run no matter what day you show up.. This is ridiculous!! Wether it be a SPO or Large Pack format all Judges and Measuring Committees need to do the right thing before any of this measuring will be corrected. First- take the dog into the measuring area and place the dog under the stand. Let the dog get comfortable and relaxed in a natural position. Second- slowly drop the bar on the TOP of the withers/Shoulder blades. third- then read the exact measurement out loud. if you don't read this measurment out loud you could be hiding something... Some measuring committees will even ask the handler if they are o.k. with that stance and drop of the bar before the measuring sleeve is put to the bar. I think this is great... Not nessasary but it is a measurers option. The measuring of the dog doesn't take place until the height is read...
If a dog will not stand for a measurment then a dog should not be measured. I am sure if you as a measurer had a complaint against you to AKC from a handler for not measuring his or her hound. I am sure you as the judge and having the FINAL decissions will prevail and that handler will make some progress for the next coming events. Dogs must stand!!!

Someone in the last post said " How do they measure the dogs in the Show Ring?' - I'm sure they have the same measuring devices we use. They are not perfect. But I know I have measured many dogs and any dog should be within 1/2" evertime a person drops the bar on that dog as long as he is standing the same everytime. You as a measurer should know where a dog should be standing in a natural position. . If you have a borderline 13" Be prepared to run the next day!! If you have a TRUE 13" one that isn't even close to 13 you have no problems.. Same goes for the 15" class. This isn't rocket science. Its beagling and everyone should know what they have.

Handlers work with your dogs... Not to get into the smaller class but to get them to stand for the measurers and make it alot better for us all..

[danny vansickle]

When a handler brings a dog that is a borderline dog 13 or 15" be prepaired to go home or run the next day... Alot of clubs now days some worse than others will let you run no matter what day you show up.. This is rediculous!! Wether it be a SPO or Large Pack format all Judges and Measuring Committees need to do the right thing before any of this measuring will be corrected. First- take the dog into the measuring area and place the dog under the stand. Let the dog get comfortable and relaxed in a natural position. Second- slowly drop the bar on the TOP of the withers/Shoulder blades. third- then read the exact measurement out loud. if you don't read this measurment out loud you could be hiding something... Some measuring committees will even ask the handler if they are o.k. with that stance and drop of the bar before the measuring sleeve is put to the bar. I think this is great... Not nessasary but it is a measurers option. The measuring of the dog doesn't take place until the height is read...
If a dog will not stand for a measurment than a dog should not be measured. I am sure if you as a measurer had a complaint against you to AKC from a handler for not measuring his or her hound. I am sure you as the judge and having the FINAL decissions will pervail and that handler will make some progress for the next coming events. Dogs must stand!!!

Someone in the last post said " How do they measure the dogs in the Show Ring?' - I'm sure they have the same measuring devices we use. They are not perfect. But I know I have measured many dogs and any dog should be within 1/2" evertime a person drops the bar on that dog as long as he is standing the same everytime. You as a measurer should know where a dog should be standing in a natural position. . If you have a borderline 13" Be prepared to run the next day!! If you have a TRUE 13" one that isn't even close to 13 you have no problems.. Same goes for the 15" class. This isn't rocket science. Its beagling and everyone should know what they have.

Handlers work with your dogs... Not to get into the smaller class but to get them to stand for the measurers and make it alot better for us all..

i thought that in large pack,the judge is only suppose to say,"in" or "out"

and on the comment of "if ya own a borderline,go home and prepare to run the next day"......

ok,if a guy has a borderline,lets say 13 1/4,and he takes your advice after driving ten hours,goes home,then comes back to run in the 15 in class,makes the winners pack,and then gets sent home cause his dog measured 12 7/8,what did this guy accomplish?


he wasted a ton of gas,motel expence and eats,when all he had to do is get his borderline dog officialed,weather it goes to the 13's or 15's,at least then,the guy knows for a fact what day to be there,am i right in thinkin this way ofr not?i would appreciate any feedback without bashing,thank you........

[wildhare2]

Danny,

I am not posting this for or against you.

If a hound is truly 1/4 high, then most likely they will get in anyway. The guy that is running a 14" hound in 13" class because their dog fairs better with smaller ones, is not a sportsman. This has gotten so out of hand it is rediculous. How many 15 1/2" to 16" "official measured" hounds do we see in trials. I know it is a bunch. I won't mention names here, but there are a few FC's that are way big. I know they run a good rabbit, but this is not the right way to win. I don't personally think that height is as much of an advantage as others. We as beaglers need to stop this thing.

[Big Dog]

Greenbay - I don't think you are quite right on the point about without us there is no AKC, beagles are only one breed of dog that AKC registers, they aren't going to waste a lot of money trying to get a rep to every beagle field trial all over the US. It doesn't make business sense for them, they would rather address the occasional complaint and move on. The bottom line is judges need to make the best attempt to do the right thing, as far as refusing to measure a hound, I see nothing in the rule book saying that it is okay to do that, you may end up with your license revoked, but who knows.

big dog

[old blood beagles]

Big Dog, if I remember right you said you will be a judge at Jessamine in a couple of weeks. I believe that you stated that you would not give nor take anything away from a dog when it comes to measuring the hound and I would like to say job well done. I did not catch your name but mine is Duane and I hope to see ya there.