What still constitutes a bloodline

[mybeagles]

In my book anything outside of grand sire or dam is nice but not of great concern. I have read post after post about Dingus McCrae, Yellow Creek, Blue Cap, Gay Baker, Even Jack of all trades and Sock it too me. Its been 30+ years guys. If your still purely inbreeding with these lines you hit the end a long time ago. If you have outcrossed your dealing with an entirely new set of genetics. When dogs go up for sale with a 40 year old line that means nothing to me, what does it mean to some of you? Im much more concerned about the sire and dam performance.

How many generations removed do you still keep crediting a sire or dam?

I see dogs for sale that were either never hunted or just used as brood dogs because they have a 5 generation pedigree that goes back to a couple greats. Can anyone honestly say they breed this way, and is this just wishful thinking?

[fasttrackpa]

Yellow creek, Blue cap and Gay (baker was one dog) are bloodlines the others you mention are dogs from a bloodline. If dogs are strictly being line bred on a certain line (Patch, Blue cap, yellow creek,gay ) Then the blood certainly makes a difference.

[NorWester1]

As far as setting the traits and characteristics within a breeding program I concern myself more with individual making the selection process than the actual bloodline or the style of breeding practice being applied

[Tim H]

If you are talking about line breeding then you go back to the start of the line to do your research. If you have a lineage that has say, Jack of all Trades in it several times then you need to consider that when breeding. Let's say you have Jack in the top and bottom of both parents, then you have to consider the likelihood that those are going to be dominant genes if that's what you see in the progeny up to that point. Consider the fact that all the Branko line is based in breeding a single pair of dogs Anna's Ann and Dingus Macrae. How long ago was that and it is still one of the most dominating forces in the beagle world.

However if someone is talking about a stud showing up one time in the pedigree and it's not within 3 generations, then it may not have much input to the dog.I personally look at the breeding pair rather than just half of the equation (such as the stud).

[sgc]

000

[Newt]

I think knowing the federation or association is more important than bloodline.
Since we were discussing Gay beagles a couple of days ago, has anyone ever traced a pedigree of a Gay bred dog. Frank Reese bred to a FC Wilson Timmy II bitch, Split Rail Betty, a sister to Dingus McCrae, Show Champion Bedlam Basil, Little Ireland's Binky, and bred a bitch to traditional Brace FC Sacajawea Steady Eddie, in the ten years that I knew him. What is the common traits in those dogs?
He bred Gay Baker to a LPH bred bitch he produced a LPH FC, B&K's Rock
He bred Gay Baker to Gay Cindy, Cindy by Wilson's Timmy II and produced a Deep South SPO FC, Glenn's Gay Demon.
He Bred Gay Baker to Split Rail Betty, Brace Trial breeding and produced Gay Rocky. Rocky was one of the beagles that show up repeatedly in the Bold Stroke line.

[RiverBottom]

I've said this before and ruffled a few feathers, but I'll say it again. If everyone reading this would take all their papers and burn them, the beagle breed would greatly improve. Far too often people base their breeding decisions on a pedigree instead of what they see with their own eyes.

The Branko bloodline was mentioned above. I've seen Branko dogs that were fast, medium speed and slow. 13", 15" (and above), good looking and ugly as sin. Some have a loud horn bawl and some sound like baby chickens. All are considered "Branko dogs". What does Jack of AllTrades in the third generation of the pedigree tell you? Not much of anything.

[foxxy]

you have a point river bottom it looks good on paper but doesnt mean anything like the dogs running style

[Tim H]

RiverBottom, you might want to educate yourself on how genetics are used by successful breeders before you judge them and their bloodlines or start throwing out all the information you don't understand how to use. You think people who understand pedigrees are blind to the fact that there are other pieces to the puzzle, yet you think we should be throwing out puzzle pieces or we'll never get the puzzle right.

You also need to understand that there is a difference between a dog having a "branko" dog in it's pedigree and a dog that is a linebred Branko dog. There have been hundreds, maybe thousands of outcrosses on any of the "popular" named lines, that changes the genetics and thus the line is not a line it is an outcross. All of the different traits you mention about what you are calling "Branko" dogs comes from those outcrosses which by definition is not a line.

In my previous post I only used the branko line and Jack of all trades as examples to illustrate a point, you could put any other lines or dogs in there that you like.

[Newt]

In your opinion, what differentiates a Branko bred dog, taken from the home kennel, from say a Northway, Birch Lake, or Round Pond besides names on a pedigree.

[Tim H]

The genetics. That's not opinion, it's fact.

[Newt]

Would you call Branko's Jack of All Trades and Heli Prop the result of "Line Breeding" or breeding good dog to good gyp? According to some they were the best he has produced. I seem to remember the late Terry McBride stating that Heli Prop was the best that he had seen of the Branko dogs and he reportedly saw a lot of them.

[mtnwaykennel]

I think that the Branko's were then ... and are now to a point in the right mind set about breeding.

Just because you here someone say they breed a bloodline... does not mean it is strickly paper to paper. Most still use a little common sense to breed what works.

You have to remember that for some... they have dedicated many many hours ... days weeks and years into the breedings they make. If you run one hound... and you like him.... raise two litters out of him ... and like them with a very high percentage rate being nice hounds... then you decide in 5 years to breed a half brother to a half sister... and continue what ever line it may be... it is not just a chance ... you have a little more to go on.

Then .... 15 years later ... your entire set is based off that hound... you have a bloodline that you are line breeding ... and still producing good hounds.... then you have done your home work my friend and also stayed with what works.

Just my thoughts.....

Bill Woods

[RiverBottom]

Didn't mean to pick on you, Branko, or Jack personaly Tim. My point is that if you use what you think you know about a dog in a pedigree to make decisions, even though you have never spent time hunting with that dog, you are doing yourself more harm than good.

I didn't just make this up one day. I came to this conclusion after raising a few hundred pups.

I'm not saying the dogs listed on the pedigree are not important, they are very important in determining how your pups will turn out.

What I'm saying is word of mouth, reading stud adds, asking questions about dogs on the internet, and even talking to the people that owned these dogs is a very poor substitute for first hand knowledge. Reading a pedigree can't possibly replace hunting over, breeding, raising pups off of and deciding what, if any dogs to use for the next generation, YOURSELF. If you don't already know it without looking at the pedigree, it isn't going to do you any good. All too often using what you think you know will do you more harm than good.

Now days, I only believe what I have seen with my own eyes.

To get back to the original question, if you make the decision about which stud to breed to which female, the bloodline is now YOURS. You must take the credit or the blame, not the person who raised the other dogs listed on the pedigree. Most likely, they would not have made the same choices you did.

[klrconcrete]

The pedigree should be the last part of the decision process when deciding on making a cross- honestly I like having registered hounds but the pedigree shouldnt come in to play AT ALL when deciding on breeding two dogs it should be what takes place in the woods that is the basis for producing pups from and for gundogs. Another good piece of advice- in my opinion is avoid reading stud ads in your beagle mags, skip the photo and description (placed by the guy wanting to collect the stud fee) and get the phone number and address and make plans, go watch the hound run preferably in a variety of conditions- in the wild and decide from this point, Its a big yank for most folks but is a better laid plan the having "Jack" in both pedigrees somewhere. Kurt Robinson