The American Beagler Forum

I have a question about the Gene Pool and DNA. I am no doctor, and I do not know the answer to this but I am curious so please bear with me why I ask a question that may sound really silly to many of you. We all know that in humans, if a pregnant woman takes or abuses certain drugs that it has a major impact on the child. It sometimes alters or changes the genes and/or DNA of the child causing birth defects or makes the unbalanced mentally and many other things. For some it causes retardation or may have the opposite effect and we see some parts of the brain used, that is not normally used and the child is borderline genius and sometimes beyond. At times it will cause freakish size abnormalities to the extreme small or large or even "extra and/or disfigured body parts". My question is this: With all the vitamins, supplements, chemicals, vaccinations, including the supplements that are intended for cattle and horses like Red Cell and many others, combined with pollution and pesticides, is it possible that we can or have changed or altered our dog’s gene pool / DNA over the years? Could we be changing what was meant to be, and “ignorantly” simply from not knowing any better, when we thought we were giving our dogs / pups an extra edge, we were actually messing things up and not letting nature take her course? I mean, I know people that loaded their dogs with supplements and vitamins from their pups first feeding on and those pups got to be 16” {sometimes bigger} and the pups came from two 13 ½ inch dogs. If we can alter their size can’t we alter other things too? Like how they think, act, shyness {emotions}, hearing, sense of smell etc…? This may sound really dumb to some of you, but I know the things that we allow in or bodies affect us and the children that we bare. Is it not the same with animals?

I think your talking about mutations, like if some how a few beagle pups were born bob tailed and it found favor among the fraternity and this was bred for in future breeding's through those having the abnormality.
I do remember seeing a beagle born with 5 toes along with dewclaws on the rear feet. They called him "Five Toed Jasper"...
The Great Pyrenees dogs my brother had, had double dewclaws on each hind leg...
I think selection and standard in breeding will keep the beagle, a beagle. People overall are bigger now than they've ever been due to better health and nutrition. I believe the drag on our small hounds is always upwards towards the medium height of the canine family. Size and the physical traits of our hounds is the easiest to breed for, it's the invisible qualities that we struggle to maintain and improve upon. These only can be evaluated by hunting and testing for their abilities. Nothing lies in wait over time and in balance, if ignored and not tested for... jmho

I doubt that there is any reason to worry about the affects of supplements. The gene pool is so large that the small number of dogs affected would be insignificant to the breed. Man and his fascination with Fads does affect the breed to an extent but it is corrected when it reaches and extreme. The traditional brace peanut rollers is an example of how far we can go down that road.

Some of you may have seen this, but for some of you this may be new. This is the best and easy to understand teaching material concerning DNA and the Beagle, that I have ever seen.
Click on this link: http://www.geocities.com/aladarbeagles/abc/sld001.htm

Well I'd say that at the very least this was an intriguing question. After all we know that kids in America are growing larger and maturing at a younger age. And there has been much speculation this may be tied to the use of steroids in cattle feed. However, I would be hard pressed to find an unbiased report on the subject. And I suppose the same argument could be applied to dogs, even more so that alot of the supplements are being directly ingested rather than passed on.
As for what S.R. Patch brought up... I just bought a pup with double dew claws and what appears to be an extra (vestigial) toe on the hind legs. And hopefully the vet will be able to do something about it. However I couldn't say if this was the result of breeding, feeding, or simply a freak occurence. However I do know (from intensively studying, over the past few months, the link Dr. Chris posted) that size isn't from the parents... it's from the grandparents. Just like hair loss in men. If both of your Grandpa's were bald you are going to be bald too. (I'm living proof of that)
So perhaps what we feed our dogs does affect the gene pool in a very limited fashion. But I doubt we are affecting it any more than any other "naturally occuring" substance. After all the chickens going into the dog food have been genetically altered and supplemented to the point many can no longer walk or run. The beef carries the same amount of steroids our own children ingest at McDonald's. And the corn (used as a filler) has been altered the most of all.
When it's all said and done... if I had to feed, or inject, my dog with anything (above and beyond what's needed for it's health) just to give it an "edge". Well I, and most others here, would probably get rid of the dog first.

Just my two cents,
Mike McCollough

Well I'd say that at the very least this was an intriguing question. After all we know that kids in America are growing larger and maturing at a younger age. And there has been much speculation this may be tied to the use of steroids in cattle feed. However, I would be hard pressed to find an unbiased report on the subject. And I suppose the same argument could be applied to dogs, even more so that alot of the supplements are being directly ingested rather than passed on.

I believe this to be true. Why else would a chicken grow from a chick to bigger then my natural raised chickens that are nearly 2 years old in 6 weeks and are trucked out to the processing plant where the waste is then supplied to the dog food factories. Those growth hormones are in the food. They are in the chicken we buy at the markets, in the eggs, and in the dog food.

Growth hormones have been given to cattle since the early 70's and the same for chickens so it does make since where people have weight issues and children have growth issues and in dogs I believe it would be relative to their growth as well, especially since their life span is much shorter then humans, I would think that if it did affect the DNA it would show up sooner in dogs and animals before humans due to the generations of exposure versus the human generations (time span in life cycles). Eventually all these chemicals/hormones is bound to change something, but we all have to eat so there is no way around not purchasing items contaminated with industrialized chemicals/hormones. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

we know that kids in America are growing larger and maturing at a younger age.

i am 6ft was one of tallest in my small highscool class-



went to my sons 8th grade class graduation -looked liked highschool kids graduating

he is taller than me- there were many kids bigger than him------



cant explain the increase in size in one generation
some of my friends grandkids---------HUGE

im convinced that growth hormones ,pesticides, fertilizers etc get into food supply -

just cause you cant test for it , doesnt mean its not there -


how this affects dogs , i have no clue

I do know (from intensively studying, over the past few months, the link Dr. Chris posted) that size isn't from the parents... it's from the ................

could you point me to that link ??

In humans, everyone acquires some changes to their DNA during the course of their lives. These changes occur in a number of ways. Sometimes there are simple copying errors that are introduced when DNA replicates itself. (Every time a cell divides, all of its DNA is duplicated so that the each of the two resulting cells have a full set of DNA.) Our cells {DNA} replicating itself is what ensures a person’s body to continually produce the same skin color, hair color, texture in our finger nails etc… throughout our lives. Other changes are introduced as a result of DNA damage through environmental agents including excessive amount of sunlight, pollution, pesticides, cigarette smoking, drug abuse, vitamin supplements, steroids and radiation. Our cells have built in mechanisms that catch and repair most of the changes that occur during DNA replication or from environmental or self inflicted damage. As we age, however, our DNA repair does not work as effectively and we accumulate changes in our DNA. Otherwise, we would all live forever. Some of these changes occur in cells of the body such as in skin cells as a result of sun exposure but are not passed on to children. But through things like drug abuse, cigarette smoking, pollution, pesticides, vitamin supplements, steroids, radiation etc… other errors can occur in the DNA of cells that produce the eggs and sperm. These are called Germline Mutations and can be passed from parent to child. If a child inherits a Germline Mutation from their parents, every cell in their body will have this error in their DNA. Germline Mutations are what cause diseases to run in families, {cancer, heart defects etc…} and are responsible for the kind of hereditary diseases covered by Genetic Health. It can also affect a child’s sight, hearing, speech, ability of smell and taste, bodily coordination and mental comprehension. So what goes in our bodies does affect our children, especially men and women over the age of 40 {where our DNA repair does not work as well} that produce children after the fact that cells/DNA has been altered or damaged. Before extensive tests were completed on human subjects, animals were used in labs to experiment with DNA and Germline Mutations. And yes, the Beagle was the most common “canine” used. So my answer to your questions/thoughts would be yes, you can apply all that is said above concerning humans, towards our dogs. You can change or alter the DNA of your “line” of Beagles over time and generations of breeding by what you put into their bodies and the atmosphere that you provide for them to live in. But it is not as bad as it sounds, cells do have built in mechanisms that catch and repair most all of the changes and damages that occur during DNA replication. However it does explain why “older” males and females often do not produce the caliber of dogs that they did when they were younger.

Dr. Chris, let me wrap my mind around this. Hypothetically, a stud and a bitch are both trialed until they are 8 years old. Their entire trialing career they were given epogen to boost their red blood cell production. A known side effect of giving e.p.o is anemia once the injections are stopped. With time the animal, if it lives, will level out and return to normal red cell production. Now lets say these two are mated at the age of 8. Over time and many generations later, if the breeder/trialer uses the same practice, will their puppies be bred anemic? Will they be born, without the ability to produce red blood cells? Would genetic make-up of these dogs be altered thru an introduced substance? Had the breeder bred each dog at a younger age would their ability to repair cell damage have been greater thus not passing on the heritable traits.

I can reply to the theory that steriods and other chemicals are the cause of much bigger kids of today. I can tell you that for the past 25 or so years it has been a regulatory requirement to prohibit any such chemical residues from entering the food chain. In federally inspected meat and poultry processing plants of today they are required to assure that the products they produce are free of any chemical additive. I can tell you that this was NOT the case in years prior to this and what was beginning to happen was humans were building up an immunity to certain antibiotics that were routinely given to animals. One of the BIG culprits was Sulfer drugs that were being used as a common do all antibiotic in swine. This does NOT mean that an animal treated with antibiotics can not be slaughtered for human food but only that the withdrawal period established by scientific documentation proving it's eleimination from the system has been followed. When I inspect animals from the local 4-H fairs I am particully on the look out for any signs of use of growth hormones as well as anything else. I pay close attention to detect injection sites and or leisons as well as any abnormal discoloration of any of the lymphnodes throughout the carcass or the internal organs. Any animal suspected of containing ANY chemical residues can and are tested in a USDA laboratory and if detected the carcass is condemned for human food use and destroyed. Now, this may very well go into your pet food as it is not banned from that. I would not be too concerned over the dry pet foods as they are cooked at ultra high temperatures in the process of making meat and bone meal BUT the canned products are NOT for human consumption for a reason. NUFF SAID!

snowshoehareguide wrote:could you point me to that link ??

Sure thing (if somebody hasn't done it already lol)

Here's the link on genetics: http://www.geocities.com/aladarbeagles/abc/sld001.htm

Here's where I found it (another good site, great reading): http://www.lanelinebeagles.zoomshare.com/0.html

Never met Jim Lane but I like the guy already.

Mike McCollough
Middletown, Indiana

warddog wrote:I can reply to the theory that steriods and other chemicals are the cause of much bigger kids of today. I can tell you that for the past 25 or so years it has been a regulatory requirement to prohibit any such chemical residues from entering the food chain. In federally inspected meat and poultry processing plants of today they are required to assure that the products they produce are free of any chemical additive. I can tell you that this was NOT the case in years prior to this and what was beginning to happen was humans were building up an immunity to certain antibiotics that were routinely given to animals. One of the BIG culprits was Sulfer drugs that were being used as a common do all antibiotic in swine. This does NOT mean that an animal treated with antibiotics can not be slaughtered for human food but only that the withdrawal period established by scientific documentation proving it's eleimination from the system has been followed. When I inspect animals from the local 4-H fairs I am particully on the look out for any signs of use of growth hormones as well as anything else. I pay close attention to detect injection sites and or leisons as well as any abnormal discoloration of any of the lymphnodes throughout the carcass or the internal organs. Any animal suspected of containing ANY chemical residues can and are tested in a USDA laboratory and if detected the carcass is condemned for human food use and destroyed. Now, this may very well go into your pet food as it is not banned from that. I would not be too concerned over the dry pet foods as they are cooked at ultra high temperatures in the process of making meat and bone meal BUT the canned products are NOT for human consumption for a reason. NUFF SAID!

Good point there Warddog, especially about the use of antibiotics for hogs. Grew up on a hog farm myself and got my 10 year pin. But you have to admit that for every good inspector like you, there are others who miss things. Not to mention places like McDonalds don't get alot of their meats stateside... which means there's even more pressure put on the inspectors as each load comes in. Human error can happen and there aint a machine made yet that can do your job (thank god!). However I have to wonder about what's going into the pet foods. Sure everything is cooked at an ultra-high temp but would that destroy a steroidal or hormonal compound like it would a bacterial agent (like anti-biotics)? Not trying to argue with ya here... just having fun exploring the "what if" side of this.

Mike McCollough

Greg H wrote:Dr. Chris, let me wrap my mind around this. Hypothetically, a stud and a bitch are both trialed until they are 8 years old. Their entire trialing career they were given epogen to boost their red blood cell production. A known side effect of giving e.p.o is anemia once the injections are stopped. With time the animal, if it lives, will level out and return to normal red cell production. Now lets say these two are mated at the age of 8. Over time and many generations later, if the breeder/trialer uses the same practice, will their puppies be bred anemic? Will they be born, without the ability to produce red blood cells? Would genetic make-up of these dogs be altered thru an introduced substance? Had the breeder bred each dog at a younger age would their ability to repair cell damage have been greater thus not passing on the heritable traits.

Epogen is a synthetic form of erythropoietin. It stimulates erythropoiesis {increases red blood cell levels} and is used “like you said” to treat anemia, commonly associated with chronic renal failure and cancer chemotherapy. Epoetin is actually what we are talking about and is marketed under the trade names Procrit and Epogen. It also has other known biological functions. For example, Epogen plays an important role in the brain's response to neuronal injury. Epogen is also involved in the wound healing process. Epogen or ESAs have a history of usage as a blood doping agent in endurance sports such as cycling, rowing, long distance running, cross country skiing, biathlon, triathlons. Treatment with Epogen in pregnant woman has been shown to significantly increase the risk of Retinopathy of prematurity in premature infants. People that use this drug on animals for competition hope to gain endurance, weight gain and the ability to heal quickly from sever injuries and wounds. But there are costly side effects. The side effects in humans are: cough, diarrhea, headache, indigestion, joint or muscle aches, nausea, respiratory congestion, sleeplessness, stinging at the injection site, stomach pain, vomiting, rash, hives, itching, difficulty breathing, tightness in the chest, swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue, calf pain or tenderness, chest pain, confusion, fever, chills, or sore throat, increased fatigue/weakness with “over use”, fast or irregular heartbeat, irritation at the injection site, numbness or pain of an arm or leg, numbness or tingling of the skin, one-sided weakness, pale skin color, seizures, severe stomach pain, shortness of breath, sudden severe headache, dizziness, vomiting, or fainting, sudden trouble walking or loss of balance, swelling of the fingers, ankles, or legs, vision or speech problems, extreme weight gain. Again, this is in humans filtering the drug through our kidneys, liver and heart. Now imagine it being filtered through the kidneys, liver and heart 1/8 the size. Those are some “extreme” side effects to risk just to gain endurance, weight gain and the ability to heal quickly. And we are just talking about this one drug. Factor in all the other drugs used with this one and all the vitamins, suppliments, vaccinations, antibiotics, pesticides etc... I do know that in horse racing, greyhound racing it is no longer allowed for active race competitors. But when it was allowed, those owners that used this drug usually recognize the talent they have, freeze their sperm and then place them on the drug as they become active. They didn’t want to take the risk of the drug tampering with their animal’s offspring. To answer your question? It would depend on if your dog was able to repair changes during DNA replication, and that depends on the age of the dog, the amounts of changes, damages, alterations and to the degree or level of each one individually. So yes, a breeder could get into the situation that with extreme changes/alterations with the combination of age and the inability to repair those changes during DNA replication, you could have a male or female that does not pass on their heritable traits. But there are a lot of circumstances involved here. That is why it is not a good idea for us to go and buy old “brood females” or old “stud males” and attempt to get that “one last” outstanding pup out of them. You may do it, but chances are it will be a bust.

I have a simple question. Is it possible that we can we give our dogs anything accidently {or on purpose} that will change their DNA {for the good or bad} that they can pass down to their offspring?