The American Beagler Forum

I posted this on another bod but I want some more discussion on it......

Ok, so I have a Bitch pup comming that is the grandson of Little Nip Otis and from the pedigree I am certain that there is inline blackjack top and bottom of the pedigree as well... (that was otis's dad I think but maybe I am wrong it doesn't change my question)

Now suppose I breed my bitch with some other dog and then breed one of those dogs. At what point do I not call the dogs Otis or blackjack dogs? If I FC my dog (oh and she will finish guys I got a good feeling about this pup that I havn't seen yet ) and she wins a world whattheheckever hunt will people start sayin they have a ____insert my dogs name here________ bloodline dog or will they still say its an otis black jack dog?

Or what If I breed my dog to a patch dog? Wold they be called otis/patch dogs forever?

Final question. When people say they have an otis/patch/blackjak/weircreek or other well known name dog are they meaning that they have a dog out of that particular dog or just a dog from that kennel. Like a brother or siter or cousin that all have the same lineage. How do you know the diffrence when just talkin on the board? Like if I buy a dog from oakhill would it be customary to call it an oakhill beagle or use the most famous dog out of its five geneation pedigree...?

Sorry this post is long but I don't wanna look stupid or insult a beagle bigwhig when soon to be FC goes to trial!

it would be nice to have a SET way of doing this; but this is always left up to the owner/beagler/people who like the dog/people who don't like the dog/people on a beagle board/ i think the main common factor is the word people in this responce. i have a friend who tells that he runs branko's and to tell the truth he has breed grade dogs to one of his dogs that has branko somewhere in the ped. and he will say i have some branko puppy's. this is nothing against his dogs they are fine hounds, and nothing against him that is just the way he see's it.......bottom line if the dog is doing great then he is breed the same a ole joe and if he doing a lackluster job ole joe must have been breed out of him way back........

hillbilly

All knowledgeable, reputable, and thoughtful breeder’s that are really concerned about bettering the breed of the beagle should demand their kennel name be on the registration papers. This says “I have faith in what I doing as a breeder”, and I stand behind my pups.

“ALL” pups out of their original line should also come with a guaranty! They will have “NO” deformities, and they must suite the new owner or we will replace the pup up to 1 year of age.

Truth of the matter is, once they are your dogs, they are no longer the possesion of the original breeder. If you buy a pup or dog that already has its name, then fine it is an Otis or Branko or Northway.... but when you breed that dog to something else, those pups are your pups, not necesarilly the original breeding. That is because YOU made the breeding, not the other kennel name.

Now, if I had a kennel full of Otis dogs or Branko dogs or Patch dogs or Northway dogs and bred them together to continue line breeding, then I may put some part of the original dog's pedigree in it somehow.

You can always show pedigrees to people that inquire if they are that interested and need to see what is in the lineage.


Emery

If ____________ is in the pedigree one time and 3 or 4 generations back I dont think you can claim theyre __________ dogs but if he's in there 3 or 4 times I think it would be a little different.

Ive got two litters of pups on the way. One has Otis 3 times in 5 generations, the other has him 4 times.

To me theyre linebred Otis but everybody else might call em something different.

I guess you just have to read the pedigree and decide for yourself.

I agree with Emory. If you breed a bitch the litter is no longer on the reputation of past breeders/kennels. You did it so you get the credit or the blame. There haven't been any Gay or Weir Creek dogs in a couple of decades but they are still for sale. I remember a tale about a dog jockey who would buy red pups and then sell them as Warfield Red dogs. Warfield Red wasn't Red and had been dead forty years but the lack of knowledge buy the beagling public kept a market for his line.

One reason I bring this up is that someone told me that if I go to a trial when my new pup is old enough and tell this one judg that I am running otis in the pedigree that my dog wll get better marks. I don't know if its true so I won't name drop yet....


Does this go on a lot?

Mo. Beagler 5000 wrote: tell this one judg that I am running otis in the pedigree that my dog wll get better marks. I don't know if its true so I won't name drop yet....

Does this go on a lot?

(Flame suit on) YUP!!!!!

You may be getting a little ahead of your self. Unless you've got a pup that is running real well and jumping and soloing rabbits it may be a little early to make a judgement on the pup's ability. Hope your pup does turn out to be a great one. Some do great running w/ dogs their age or even on their own and then drop them on the ground w/ some high powered dogs and they fall apart. It happens. Just saying evaluate your hound's abilities and progression objectively.

Also just to help...you've mentioned Black Creek, Weir Creek and Otis - which are all conservative med speed dogs. Patch on the other hand is typically regarded a faster, harder hitting dog. Most folks wouldn't cross the two. Not saying you shouldn't but it would be an experiment.

To answer you question, I think the best way to discribed your dog is to say something like "she goes back to Otis". But that being said as a grand pup of Otis she is already only 25% Otis and if you breed an outcross that pup will only be 12.5% Otis. So, basically you've got what ever kind of dog's your kennel is named b/c you selected the cross and own the pups.

Just my $0.02. And on a side note - I know alot of us like to study pedigrees and like to own and buy "big name dogs," but don't get too caught up in the "name of the dogs" Focus a lot more on the hounds ability on the ground. I'd much rather own a no name beagle that can consistently blister a rabbit than a big name dog that's average at best.....and believe me there are plenty of very average "big named hounds" hounds out there.

-Pete

You were told that if you tell the judge that hey my pup or dog here is out of Otis or Branko or whatever that it will help you get better marks. Wow I gotta find that trial or judges so I can mention that to them so my dog will do great,, even it skirts, pops off in check, don't hunt, leaves the check to go find another rabbit. Most guys that trial run the same stuff, otis , reaper , shorts , or something along that line and the trials I've been to I've never seen any funny business like that because for one thing the bloodlines are so similar. So if you go to a trial with 50 little males probably 15 to 20 will have otis, another 10 will have red bull, 5 will have mookie bear, so on and so on, so as judge if I was corrupt how possibly could I keep up with that.

I had an excellent otis male last year that got three wins last year all under different judges, and he also got a bunch of 3rds and 4ths. After each win, and I'm not well known, each pair of judges came up said congrats and asked what is that dog out of. Only one of the 6 judges that put a win on that dog knew who I was, or that dog was and in that trial another handler turned to me and said congrats after they called field trial because he dominated the winners pack let alone the 3 previous series.

So I guess run what you like but just because you have a FC sire don't mean anything, unless you like your dog. AT the end of a field trial everyone goes home a little poorer than they were and the guys you go to hunt with don't care what your dog does at a trial and that is the way it should be.

When you breed two dogs together the off spring is your's. If They are good you take the credit if they are culls they are still your's not the breeders you got your brood stock off. He didnt make that cross you did. Regardless of the out come you are to blame. When I breed the pups I keep have my Kennel name on them. Any one who gets one off me can use what ever name they want to. I'm not the one raising and training it. If they breed it the off spring is not from my kennel. So it is not my breeding. Only Time I use a other name is to show what blood is in the cross. Not to claim that the pup if from that breeder. If I done the breeding no matter what blood I use it is still a BRAIRSWAMP bred dog While in my kennel.

i always put my name in front of the pups. like chapkos shootum down tank. he is out of green bay shooter. that is how i always have done it,and i figure it is my dog i can name it what i want regardless of its breeding . am i wrong?

You ask "when do you stop using a kennel or a dog's name?" For some the answear is NEVER!!!!!! Look at all the people that continue to advertise pups and studs linking them to hounds and / or breeders that are so far "back -in-the-day" that most of these guys never even saw the dog or know only hearsay about the breeders.Some prime examples I might offer would be Warfield Red,Dingus McCrae,Weircreek Buzz,today's "Patch"dogs.
I know,I know.I've heard so many say"we only call our dogs that to give recognition or so folks will know what they go back to".Maybe yes,maybe no,only you know for sure.But to me it smacks of alot of folks trying to ride the coattails of popular hounds and beaglers of yesteryear.Considering these hounds and their owners/breeders have been out of the beagle world for anywhere from 25-50 years that's a mighty LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG set of coattails you're trying to hang on to.
Heck,Dale Jr. ain't even half the driver his old man was but we got 90% of NASCAR fans ga ga over him and even got Jr. Nation.So when Jr. gets a boy of his own and he gets to be old enough should he get all the sponsors and a ride with a top team because his grandaddy was at the top of his game at that time in history???
Do you think it's a coincidence that no Kentucky Derby winner has ever sired a Kentucky Derby winner? And that is with having the best mares in THE WORLD bred to them.
So when I hear about old so and so that was the BIG Dog back when my dad started running beagles [he's 83 now ] excuse me if I'm not overly wowed .If you spend anytime at all reading on the study of genetics you'll understand why.

well said Dana i agree 100% most all my dogs are branko top an bottom or branko otterbrook but when i have pups or register pups i just put my kennel name on it because with some of the dogs i produce i m sure the Krpans dont want there name on it. lol. i allways like the statement i put the name in there so people will know my dogs history when what they really mean is it helps me sell pups.to answer the question once you breed two dogs together the only kennel name that should be on that paper is yours period if people want to know the history of the pups give them a 5gen. pedigree to go with them

lol, I believe you thinking is all crossed no one would put patch on a hound their trying sell or promote in a fieldtrial, remember, their wild allover the place hounds, that are tight/mouthy swingers.
I remember Carl saying he couldn't get a fair shake on getting Bob patch judged, I told him he put the wrong name on him, he should have named him Bronco Bob. He was a red/liver hound and I believe he could have gotten away with it...
None the less, he was a dandy hound, I don't know why someone want to steal him I guess the name really didn't matter to someone who wanted a real rabbitdawg...
Billy Parchman's hounds were stolen, Terry said, Mr, Coopers hounds were stolen, I don't know if folks like the hounds that much or if it's just that patch name they hate & want to get rid of...hummm
Oh well, i wouldn't let it bother me, a name usually fades with the quality it produces, I'd say another 30 yrs. and you'll hardly hear of a patch...hummm...or maybe not...