Dog color....just curious about an observation.

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:56 am

I was taking a look at the Hall of Fame Beagle website (males) and noticed that a vast majority of the beagles were tri-colored. So, I looked at each picture and kept track. There are about 170 dogs listed.

Tri-color = 162 (ranging from open marked to b&t) (95.3%)
Blue Tick = 5 (2.9%)
Lemon / White = 3 (1.7%)
Red / White = 0 (0%)
Red Tick = 0 (0%)

Now I know the vast majority of beagles are tri-colored, but still it seems
way out of proportion. Any explanation for this? Is it b/c this tri-color a dominate trait and over all produces better dogs? Is it b/c judges prefer this color? How do you explain it? This list of dogs include AKC, CKC, UKC, ARHA.

(Also, some of the pictures are hard to determine color, but I feel this is pretty close to accurate).

Post by **Bev** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:35 am

NC Beagler, I'm pretty sure you're talking about the BeaglesUnlimited website. If so, that list is a good one, but not a complete one. I believe many more hounds have made HOF in the different registries since the list was compiled. I don't know the exact reason for it, but it could be that genetically, tri-color is dominant in a beagle.

I've also noticed that you will see a lot more red/wh, and redtick dogs running in ARHA & UKC than you will in AKC. AKC certainly has some, but not in the percentages the other registries do. (just my observation) This probably has a more to do with which bloodlines have been successful and promoted in each registry and the color just kinda tagged along. AKC and its breed affiliate National Beagle Club have had their hats in the beagle field trialing arena for over 100 years, the others less than 20 years, so that might explain the overwhelming number of tri-colors, too.

I know of at least one redtick male that has made all Of Fame in ARHA; it is Grand Rabbit Champion Goose Creek Sam (AKC name Country Red Buck). I know a little bit about him, so I'll share it with whoever might be interested:

Rick Howard of Blanchester, OH was Sam's breeder and the Surber brothers Scott & David of Crawfordsville, IN, Scott were his owners at the time of his death. Sam had a very limited number of breedings, 5 - 7 total I believe, yet his offspring performed so well that he was inducted into ARHA's HOF last year as Reproducer. Sam and his offspring were/are fast, on-the-line type of hounds, not swingers and sloppy workers. I have a daughter of Sam I am told is the spittin' image of him. She can be seen at http://www.americanbeagler.net/dollypedigree.html Just add the male plumbing

and you'll have a picture of Sam. Sam was son of LP & PP Grand Rabbit Champion McCleese's Duck (a red/wh hound) and Country Red Pixie.

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:50 am

Bev, that is the list I was looking at. I understand it is not a complete list, but thought it would be an accurate cross section.
I've also noticed on the coon hound HOY that the vast majority of them are walkers - tricolors. Just thought it was interesting.
I have a red and white female beagle and she is very smart, handles like a dream and is a decent jump dog. I have noticed that she gets tired much quicker than my other dogs. She approximately the same height and age as the others and is actually the lightest dog I have. I even took her to the vet to see if there was anything wrong - there wasn't. She has the drive just doesn't have the same endurance as the others.
I heard a couple others say that they have red dogs that get tired also, just wonder if somehow that was a recessive trait that somehow got passed along w/ the red. Just curious.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:29 am

NC Beagler,
What a bunch of balogna that is!!! I have a whole kennel of Red hounds and even at ages 7(Mousie), 7(Lisa) and 9 (Blazer) they have been running at least three days a week, three hours each time out. I run them 8am till 11am and sometimes at night, to avoid the major heat. I have had some good hounds of all colors but none better than my Reds. I will tell you one thing though when it comes to trials they are at a distinct disadvantage.When you stand out you are easily seen, good or bad! With tri colors they all blend together and judges need to see the number on the side, which is often hard to do. But they always can see the RED dog and when judges say pick up the 19hound, the 3hound, the 5 hound Oh Yeah and pick the RED hound you can really see what a problem it is. I have seen Red hounds kicking butt during trials that I have Marshalled (and I am not talking about my own at this point) only to have the judges order to pick them up. In the mean time hounds that are swinging, cheating, ghost tracking and sometimes off laying in the bushes resting, remain until late in the trial simply because they blend in and therefore go unnoticed. Sorry to hear your red pup poops out ! But before you judge all red hounds please consider coming north this season for a day of running with me. There may be faster and better out there but mine are full of heart, desire, brains and hunt and will not quit until I tell them its time to go.
Peace,
NYH

Post by **Bev** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:07 pm

NYH, I see where you're coming from with your post. I don't think NC beagler was stating a fact as much as asking the question. Opinions can only be formed on the experiences we have. I too, was curious about the low number of red hounds in comparison in the AKC trials, because I was afraid of "Red Dog Prejudice". Since I've been trialing in AKC, I can tell you my tri-colors get picked up as often as my red dogs, lol! I've never personally encountered the Red Dog Prejudice in the SPO trials I've attended. I had a redtick go to the winners pack on her first SPO trial and finish 6th because she wasn't conditioned as hard as the others and it showed toward the end.

Seriously, a judge worth his salt will give all the hounds a good look - regardless of color. One reason is, if there's a hound in that pack that shows winning talent, he's going to want some props for recognizing it - red, blue or tri-color. Makes no difference to the judge dedicated to the AKC standard for judging. If one should run under a judge who will pick a dog up for color, the whole class has lost out the money they paid for an honest evaluation, anyway.

On another note, some confident folks keep a beagle with as much white on it as possible, or the most distinctive voice to catch the judge's attention, assuring them their tricolor won't get lost in the pack, and that it will get the credit it deserves. If the dog doesn't perform well that day, it can be a double-edged sword, lol!

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:25 pm

OK NYH, settle down I'm not saying anything personally about your hounds or anyone else's red dogs. Being that quick tempered and defensive does however raise some warning flags about your insecurity that anyone who has been through Pych 101 would recgonize.

You will note that I never made any general statements about red dogs being no good. I love my red dog and she will be here till she dies. I won't breed her though b/c she gets tire easily - not a trait I want to pass on.

I have tri-colors, a lemon and one red dog. I don't run w/ anyone else who has a red dog. Most people that look at my dogs like the red one best - both looks and mannerism - she is a smart little thing.

I have noticed in my limited experience w/ my red dog that she get tired easily. I've heard a handful of other say similar things. That being my limited experience, I am trying to educate myself my asking a larger group - that is the reason for my follow up question.

If your experience is that red dogs have the same endurance level as other colors - then that is all you have to say. And I'd thank you for your input.

Does anyone else have any experience w/ red dogs?

Post by **Bev** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:17 pm

Well, I know I've already replied, but if it's any help, I haven't seen a relationship between color and endurance. We have everything except lem/wh in the kennel and my 8-yr-old red male can still go most of a day, with no more running than he gets these days. He's wise enough to pace himself I guess.

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:30 pm

Thanks Bev
It doesn't seem logical I know - that is why I am curious.
-Pete

YGD(BUNNYBUSTER) · Post by **YGD(BUNNYBUSTER)** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:16 pm

I HAVE A RED &WHITE DOG FROM MURPHY'S KENNEL & A TRI-COLOR
AND A TICKED DOG. THE RED DOG STAYS UP STEP TO STEP WITH THE OTHER TWO & HAS MORE ENERGY AT THE END THAN THE OTHERS.
BUNNY BUSTER

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:32 am

NCBeagler,
Whoa there buddy lets set a few things straight. First off when I said that it was a bunch of bologna I was refering to what the so called people have been telling you. It had nothing to do with you personally. Second off if you go back to the post I wrote you will see I went on to demonstrate a counter point to what those folks have been telling you. This was merely to point out to you that there are people out there, including myself who have had very different experiences with red hounds. As far as a red dog predjudice, as Bev stated people formulate their opinions based on their experiences. It has been my experience that red hounds seem to find themselves back in the box faster than tri colors of lesser ability, at least in the AKC Large Pack trials I have watched and Marshalled. Again only pointing out what "I" have seen! And please take note I was not refering to "my" hounds because I do not trial in AKC events with my hounds, only did a couple of times. Now lastly...please take the time to go back and read any of my posts from the past from I can't even remember how long. You will see a person who has remained free of controversy, petty bickering and trouble making. I have ALWAYS been polite and respectful to all I have replied to. If you noticed I even extended a heartfelt, sincere offer for you to reserve your opinion of Red hounds and to come running here with me. The fact that you somehow interpreted this in a confrontational manner rather than as the sincere offer that it was, I would say speaks volumes to "YOUR" insecurities. And as far as your eluding to Psych 101 goes, becareful of what you are preaching and to whom. If you were truely that good in that class you would be able to go back, read my original post and see that it was you that for some reason misinterpreted my post and immediately became defensive. In Psych 102 you would have learned about the book called the DSM IV which would list a possible Axis 1 diagnosis of Persecution complex for those that feel picked on all the time.

Now I apologize for leaving you with the feeling that I somehow stepped on your toes and I promise to not do it again. Good luck in your search for the truth about Red hounds. And as always,
Peace,
NYH.......Psych R.N.
P.S........I respectfully withdraw the offer for the N.Y. hare hunting trip, despite the fact I feel I could have shown you a real good time traipsing about the Adirondack foothills.....with my RED dogs.

sgc · Post by **sgc** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:34 am

Shouldn't there be some black & tan's on that list?

Post by **Bev** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:13 am

Ain't the written word grand? So many true emotions and inflections are lost in the trip from the thought to the keyboard.

Y'all really don't have a beef with one another.

sgc, I'd say true black and tans are more rare than red dogs. A lot of people call dogs black and tan when they actuallt have white feet or white on the chest. I've always considered black and tans to be void of any white at all. Don't know if that's right or not, but it's the way I see it.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:55 am

Bev,
Imagine my surprise when I read the response to what I thought to be a helpful post. To steal a line from the old hamburger commercial.....Where's the BEEF!

Peace,
NYH

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:08 am

I agree with you NYH, if you have a R/W, L/W , he will have to earn it for they stand out amongest the others, much easier to see afield but then again, they should have to earn it and there will be no doubt when they do.
Mike Yates always bred for as much red on his Patches as he could for he said if they were mostly white, they were guessed to be Patch and had no chance to stay down to get looked at. This was in the early start of the SPO down south in Miss.
Randall said, we don't hunt with blankets but many use them to cover up quiters when they drop from a hard race. The black blanket craze of years ago ruined many good families of hounds. Breed for a blanket if you must but never at the cost of quality.

Patch

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:15 pm

NYH -don't go running to Bev "Imagine my surprise....." If you re-read her earlier post you will see that she interpreted your message the same way I did.

But there is no beef here. Guess a lot is lost in the written word. I honestly don't feel picked on - so you mis-read that somehow.....Just trying to learn and talk with those who know more about beagles then I do and can help me along the way.

Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to an honest mistake and get on w/ things.

The American Beagler Forum

Dog color....just curious about an observation.

Dog color....just curious about an observation.

RED DOGS

dog color