The American Beagler Forum

Bob, could you explain in a way us slower people can understand how avoidance training works?
I use a tritronics field 70 with the tone button to train my dogs to come when called. I have a young dog that is doing something I have never seen before. This dog hunts extremely hard. When you let her go she is gone and does not come back on her own. She was bred that way and both parents are the same way. I have been running her almost every morning for an hour or two with the collar on. When she is not on a hot track and I am sure she can hear me, I call her and use the tone button at the same time. So far, she comes running to find me every time. She seems very happy to find me. I have never had to shock her, even on the lowest setting that I can remember. You need to understand, there is no way this dog is going to quit running rabbits on her own as long as she has the energy to go. If I do not call her she is not coming.
Either I shocked her one time and just don't remember (my memory aint what it used to be) or this collar is realy good.
Anyway, my question is what is the best way to use the tone button for avoidance training?

Hey Tom Can I borrow that collar?? The collar works by negative reinforcement. It also works by punishment. These are 2 entirely differant conditioning or training methods. Punishment is when a dog experiences unpleasant event because of his behavior. EX: RUNS DEER=GETS SHOCKED BY COLLAR. EX: BARKS IN PEN= GETS SHOCKED BY COLLAR. This is differant than NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. This method of training occurs when an unpleasant event is AVOIDED or stopped because the dog does a specific behavior. For negative reinforcement to occur, the dog must be warned beforehand what is about to happen and he must know a behavior that will stop the unpleasant event. I agree it is confusing but hang tough as it will make sense soon. To compare punishment in human terms we could say that Bubba had a hard time learning to stop at RR tracks until one day the train hit him and from then on he never forgot to stop at the crossing. Bubba wasn't too bright( it runs in my family as one of our anscestors was a monkey) and it is too bad but he had to learn the hard way. I have another brother ( same family ) that was a little smarter and he figured out that if he was approaching the RR crossing and the lights were flashing and the train was blowing a warning whistle, he better stop or else he too would be looking at the Grim Reaper. He learned to AVOID the unpleasant event by doing a specific behavior ( stopping ). As you see, there had to be a warning whistle for this to occur. That is the warning button on your collar. One method works better on certain things and the other way works better on other things. In the first stage of deer breaking, the punishment works better. Everyone understands punishment when they see it, and that includes the dog. It is an unpleasant experience. For avoidance training to work, the dog must hear the warning and must have another behavior he can perform as an alternative to the one you are trying to eliminate. Lets assume you are teaching your dog to come to you. You first teach him in the yard that when you give the command come he is to come to you. You can use a rope or just a fence area and give a reward to teach this in the first stages. Now take him to the field and turn him loose to hunt. First give the command to come and then quickly give the warning. If your dog doesn't come, give him a shock. He will quickly learn that everytime he hears the warning, a shock is coming. Since he knows it is coming, he will also quickly look for a way to avoid it. You will be surprised how quickly he learns this. Most will quickly start coming to you as they remember there yard training and it is a handy behavior to try. As he does this, he quickly learns that he avoided the shock by coming to you. It all sounds complicated, but if you do this in the field you correctly, you will be amazed at the results. What is so surprising is that the dog likes it. By giving him a warning first, you give him a chance to make up his mind on his own what he wants to do. It gives him autonomy or power to decide his own fate in a non confusing mannerand when he avoids the shock it acts as a reward and becomes positive training. His tail will come up and he will be animated and happy. You are rewarding the opposite behavior of the one you are trying to correct. When I first learned this method, it seemed confusing and didn't sound much differant than punishment training----until I saw the results and how quickly the dog learned it. It was a huge improvement over the punishment style and the results were just outstanding. The dog was happy and was also much quicker to learn new things. To make it mosr effective, start giving the warning every second time like you would food or any other reward. The reason avoidaance training works better is because when you punish and try to stop a behavior that is already a habit, the dog has to struggle to suppres the behavior. it is hard to do sometimes. Better to replace the bad behavior with the opposite behavior and reward it.

One of the reasons avoidance training works so good is the dog feels empowered and in control. He thinks he has a choice and likes it. The first time I used this there were no warning buttons on the collars. A friend had a hard running English pointer that was hard headed and wouldn't handle a bit. I used a whistle for a warning and my friend used a differant whistle for the coammand to come. The dog had already been trained to his whistle but she was ignoring it. He blew his whistle and then I blew the warning and then I blasted her with the collar. She stopped in her tracks but didn't know what to do. I blew my whistle once more and she set sail for her owner. We did it once more and she was a trained dog after that and always came with her tail up and just happy as heck to be doing it. She had her tail up from the first time we did it and no one was more amazed at it than I was. I simply could not believe thatsomething as simple as this warning thing could have such results. I was used to seeing them shaocked for not coming and coming back with there head down and tail between the legs. It works and once you do it you will be convinced.

I agree. It works.

One beneficial side effect of the warning is breaking the dog's concentration. I've seen plenty of times when the dog was within hearing distance and they just weren't paying attention; being focussed on something else. It's not that they were being obstinant, it's just that they truly didn't hear me. The warning breaks their concentration and gives them the opportunity to make the right choice -- a win-win.

THANKS BOB & CHRIS!! THEY SAY YOU LEARN SOMETHING EVERY DAY & IT'S STILL MORNING & I GOT MY LESSON FOR TODAY.
VERY INTERESTING. THANKS AGAIN

I have a question on this. Do you find that the dog will always push you to the warning before responding? For example. I am calling my dog to come to me and he won't come. I give him the warning tone and he still doesn't come. I shock him and he learns to come before the shock gets him. But, does it teach them to come when called or will I almost always have to get to the warning before they will come?

He will learn to come on command.

Bob,, do you break your dogs from running deer useing the avoidance method or simply the punisment method... which one works the best for deer breaking?>?

I don't break deer runners. I change their address.

I would start with the punishment and then switch to avoidance. What I do is I will whip them with a little switch if they are a good dog, and if that don't break them I just get rid of them. Thats just the way I do it and then I don't have to worry about them running another one when I am suppose to be having fun instead.