Brood gyp thoughts
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Brood gyp thoughts
I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on females sold strictly as brood dogs. Personally I tend to think that if a gyp doesn't have no hunt in her then why would I buy her just to breed. I know that it is possible to have a few pups that turn out but for the most part but it seems like they would have a better chance of turning out if mom hunted herself. This does not mean the females that are getting on up there in years, ran rabbits for several seasons and are retired from hunting or don't get hunted as hard as they use too but more so the dogs that the only thing they have going for them is a pretty set of papers. This topic started when someone at work was trying to sell me a gyp for breeding only cause she will otherwise be a cull. To me a cull is a cull no matter what she would be used for. I really dont see this as much with beagles as I do with coonhounds but since I had a serious debate with my friend I wondered what your all's thoughts are.
Jeff Driver
A brood dog reminds me of puppy mills. Where all the females are used for is breeding over and over again. Even if it is only one dog, I don't like the idea. What would you say to the idea of maybe wour wife, sister or daughter to be used in this way? Their whole purpose in life was to make babies for someone elses gain and to do so for their entire productive life. Not to mention all the complications that go along with this... Just my opinion that I don't like the idea at all.
Emery
Emery
Be ye kind one unto another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
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AlabamaSwamper
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:06 pm
- Location: Florence, AL
- Contact:
People who use dogs for the sole purpose of having pups for money will never get my business. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it. I don't care what she is bred out of or what dogs are in her pedigree. If she don't hunt, then she is useless.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
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BUNNYBUSTER
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:07 pm
- Location: BENNINGTON, IND.
BROOD DOGS
THE ONLY WAY TO GET GOOD PUPS IS TO BREED GOOD DOGS
BUNNY BUSTER
BUNNY BUSTER
If that dog won't hunt chances are that the majority of the pups out of her won't hunt either. I think the dam has as much, if not more, to do with the offspring then the sire does. I would like my hounds to reproduce their likeliness so if it won't hunt it won't get bred or even stay here for long.
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
Papers alone don't make dogs. I'm like Emery, I don't personally like the idea of brood bitches, but unfortunately you're starting to see it more often now in the beagle world.
When a person goes to buy a pup he should ALWAYS ask how both parents hunt. If they don't, find another breeder!
When a person goes to buy a pup he should ALWAYS ask how both parents hunt. If they don't, find another breeder!
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
I sure am glad I to see you guys have the same thoughts as I on this matter. He approached me again last night about this female with a picture of her and asked if I would have a change of heart. I told him he could bring in pictures, pedigrees, video, even the darn mut on a leash it didnt make no difference to me, if she dont got no hunt in her I dont want her. In so many words I told him you can take a big pile of crap and shape it and mold it into something pretty and it still wouldnt change the fact that it is just a big pile of crap. Funny thing is he said she would make a good mother. I told him that may be so but if she dont hunt then I got no place for her, best thing he could do is take her out of the pen with the other hounds before it rubbed off on them too (LOL) and since she dont go off just have her as a pet. If you guys dont care I think I may print the responses I got just to show him I aint the only one who feels this way.
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Chris Herpin
Brood Gyp Thoughts
I'm not disagreeing with you guys. This is just a little food for thought. I have found that some of the best race horses are from broodmares that had great sires, but weren't worth a flip themselves. The perfect example is Secretariat. He was phenominal on the track. His sons and daughters weren't very much. Only a couple I can think of that turned out to be pretty good. His daughters can't be bought because of their producing ability!!! I'm not trying to be cotroversial, but wanted to share my observation with you. CHIIS
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MSB
Just a little food for thought I agree with what you are saying 100% but will tell you of a little experiment tried once. Bought a gyp from a boy who needed a little help with school expenses. She was a 100% me tooer,
0 hunt, liked her small size and looks, so breed her to a male, that had tons of hunt and desire. She had 7 pups, kept 2 females, they turned out to be good dogs, kept track of the others all but one had tons of hunt and desire the guys who bought them loved them. Is this the norm, I would have to say no. I guess what I am saying is just like horses some dogs are useless as rabbit dogs themselves, but have the abilitly to reproduce good dogs. Hey another example on horses would be DOC BAR, he never did much but his offspring were great preformance horses.
Oh yea the male I breed the little gup to had "Branko"s JACK OF ALL TRADES" 10 times in his pedgree. and that was kinda what JACK was famous for "the ability to reproduce"
0 hunt, liked her small size and looks, so breed her to a male, that had tons of hunt and desire. She had 7 pups, kept 2 females, they turned out to be good dogs, kept track of the others all but one had tons of hunt and desire the guys who bought them loved them. Is this the norm, I would have to say no. I guess what I am saying is just like horses some dogs are useless as rabbit dogs themselves, but have the abilitly to reproduce good dogs. Hey another example on horses would be DOC BAR, he never did much but his offspring were great preformance horses.
Oh yea the male I breed the little gup to had "Branko"s JACK OF ALL TRADES" 10 times in his pedgree. and that was kinda what JACK was famous for "the ability to reproduce"
You might get lucky with the first set of offspring because of the sire, but I would be really curious to see what second or third generations did. The mother's "no hunt" genes would show up again eventually and I wouldn't want that in my kennel.
Emery
Emery
Be ye kind one unto another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
brood gyps
I personally would not breed a dog that wasn't any good, no matter how she was bred. I am one that thinks that the pups get just as much if not more from the Dam. I have seen some good dogs come out of dogs that were sorry, but I wouldn't personally want to take a chance. I like to breed good one to good one from the same line and I will stick with that.
Big Dog
Big Dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
I called up a very well known breeder once who mainly runs AKC - SPO trials and has finished several FC's, to talk with him about his bloodlines. I found out he lays back bitches with great-looking pedigrees for brood bitches. When I asked about how a certain bitch ran (because I was mainly inquiring about a pup from a breeding where she was the Dam) and he stated he really didn't know because she was never ran, just laid back for pups. Needless to say I passed on a pup!
I really feel the bitch has just a little more to do with the turn-out of the pups than does the sire. I think it's the Sire - 45%, Dam - 55%. Just my opinion.
I really feel the bitch has just a little more to do with the turn-out of the pups than does the sire. I think it's the Sire - 45%, Dam - 55%. Just my opinion.
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He's coming....are you ready?
He's coming....are you ready?
JMHO, It is the family, not the individual that will most influence the offspring. The producers and the performers are rarely one in the same. The family bred close and held to the standard will have the greater input on what the pups will be, as the variables will have been narrowed in previous generations(prepotent) to produce consistency or like type in the litters...Patch
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Chuck Terry
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:26 pm
S.R. Patch makes a good point there. The limited success I have acheived has been from buying young breeding stock (the only kind I can afford!) from beagle families known to produce the kind I want and having pups from them. From these I select the best and breed them. I ALWAYS GET PICK OF THE LITTER THIS WAY! Maybe I just got lucky a few times but I sure got NOWHERE fast buying expensive pups from famous kennels and giving them away when they proved faulty for my purposes! This failure is partly due to my ignorance of bloodlines and the like but there are no guarantees even with the big name kennels!
Chris,
The major distinction between racehorse breeding and dog breeding is that horse racing has loads of widely-available statistical information about breeding, and the high-price of making a breeding mistake is tremendous. No foals are produced without plenty of research, monetary committment, and foresight. I think the highest stud fee out there right now is $500,000 to get one live foal, and there are at least a dozen others in the U.S. alone that are six figures. A well-bred female horse, despite being unraced or having performed poorly, still may have a lot of statistics behind her (because of her genetics) to justify her place as a broodmare. You don't have that kind of information and thoroughness when it comes to breeding dogs. And with race horses, the best stallions are producing 40-100 foals annually. Since female horses can only have one foal per year, there needs to be a substantially higher female population to meet the breeding demand. With dogs, there is no reason that the bitch shouldn't be about as good as specimen as the stud dog.
Secretariat wasn't a successful sire, or sire-of-sires, but he was among the leading broodmare sires year-after-year for his lifetime. He did throw one awesome son in Risen Star, who subsequently hasn't produced anything of note, either. Secretariat was a physical freak (it was documented that his heart was much larger than a typical throughbred of his size), and many of the physical specimens in the industry have been comparably poor sires. Two recently deceased stallions, Affirmed and Spectacular Bid, were also vastly better runners than stallions. The major theory is that many of the "exceptional" horses just don't match up well genetically with the general breeding population.
The major distinction between racehorse breeding and dog breeding is that horse racing has loads of widely-available statistical information about breeding, and the high-price of making a breeding mistake is tremendous. No foals are produced without plenty of research, monetary committment, and foresight. I think the highest stud fee out there right now is $500,000 to get one live foal, and there are at least a dozen others in the U.S. alone that are six figures. A well-bred female horse, despite being unraced or having performed poorly, still may have a lot of statistics behind her (because of her genetics) to justify her place as a broodmare. You don't have that kind of information and thoroughness when it comes to breeding dogs. And with race horses, the best stallions are producing 40-100 foals annually. Since female horses can only have one foal per year, there needs to be a substantially higher female population to meet the breeding demand. With dogs, there is no reason that the bitch shouldn't be about as good as specimen as the stud dog.
Secretariat wasn't a successful sire, or sire-of-sires, but he was among the leading broodmare sires year-after-year for his lifetime. He did throw one awesome son in Risen Star, who subsequently hasn't produced anything of note, either. Secretariat was a physical freak (it was documented that his heart was much larger than a typical throughbred of his size), and many of the physical specimens in the industry have been comparably poor sires. Two recently deceased stallions, Affirmed and Spectacular Bid, were also vastly better runners than stallions. The major theory is that many of the "exceptional" horses just don't match up well genetically with the general breeding population.