speed?

THALL · Post by **THALL** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:24 pm

just wondering what some of you guys think.
i've seen dogs people say are slow, but just walked a track and couldn't keep a rabbit going. It would be hard to kill 2 or 3 rabbits a day with them.
Then i've seen fast dog that i thought were a slow medium, and then there's mediums that i thought were fast. To me a fast dog will catch a rabbit or put him in a hole quickly and a slow dog can circle a rabbit in a small circle without the rabbit ever really running. I know a dog has to be able run a track to be slow or fast. What's fast and what's slow?

CORNERSTONE · Post by **CORNERSTONE** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:31 pm

I also think conditions will can also make a dog look good or bad as far as top end speed. I also think speed is a state of mind. I have heard people say that one of my dogs was an 8, but I know he was a 6 at best. A blazeing dog in an Spo Trial may seem slower with a Little Pack Group

just my 2-cents

Stumbo's Beagles · Post by **Stumbo's Beagles** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:48 pm

I agree with you Cornerstone, a SPO dog is a med. speed dog and a UKC Little Pack Dog is more of a faster type dog. I also agree that the conditions will slow or speed up dogs. I like this type of dog that has the brains to gear down or up according to the conditions. I have several types of hounds. I have Dogs out of Brinsky's Run-Em Over Tank and I consider these dogs medium speed, so around a 5 out of 10. I also have Northway and Branko dogs and I consider these dogs to be around a 8 out of 10. My female Northway dog has even caught a rabbit, but that was just 1 rabbit. So THALL I think you are right with what you said. A fast dog will put a rabbit in the hole quickly, most of the time. I hope this helps. I like this question and can't wait to see what others has to say.

Roy Pasmore · Post by **Roy Pasmore** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:26 am

I run mediam speed dogs now. At one time I had fast dogs or what was considered to be fast. I catch more rabbits with the dogs I have now. Yet A fast dog that can control A track that gets in open country will run off from my dogs. Go figger.

gus · Post by **gus** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:59 pm

Roy P I agree with your assesment. I had fast dogs most of my life and don't remember them ever catching a rabbit/ About five years ago I switched to medium speed hounds. My best hound was medium speed, she showed me the difference, so I switched. Last year I was running a rabbit in a bean field with a Kalagha bitch and a Homer male. Both were less that a year old. They ran the rabbit for about an hour, maybe more, and then I heard the rabbit squeal. It is now rather common to run down a rabbit.
The difference is constant pressure. With fast over competitive beagles there are more breakdowns which allows the rabbit to rest. I'm confident that beaglers who have fast hounds that run the line and not the lead dog see a lot of caught rabbits also. It seems though, that when you breed for speed it is much more difficult to retain the line control and check work to keep the checks short and to a minimum.

BJK · Post by **BJK** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:56 pm

My dogs catch rabbits all the time, especially if they don't go to hole. Mine are fast.

J.B.M. · Post by **J.B.M.** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:02 pm

Some folks confuse speed with cheating. I run medium to med-fast hounds. I have ran mine with some hounds that were described as really fast by their owners. When I ran with these hounds I saw that they were no faster than mine, but after skirting, cutting, and slipping the line out of the check, they would be way out ahead sometimes, and the owner would point out how fast they were and how bad he was making me look.

I've heard that Chapman's Buzz Bomb made a habit of catching rabbits, he kept constant pressure on the rabbit and would just pick them up when they couldn't go anymore. Speed is a hard thing to descibe because there are just so many different ideas of what fast, medium, and slow is.

BJK · Post by **BJK** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:34 pm

I have had scent hounds just about all of my life. I know the difference between speed and quickness, cutting, slashing and swinging. When I say speed, I'm talking about how fast a hound can run while carrying the track. Some dogs require more scent than others. I've seen dogs that needed to suck up every micro particle of scent that a rabbit leaves in order to run the line. I have and still own dogs that require very little scent and can flat drive the line running all out with visions of picking up the rabbit and hearing it squeal. I have seen fast dogs circle a rabbit that wouldn't go to ground. And with every pass they got closer and closer until the chase abruptly stops. While runnning up on them you see heads bobbing up and down and the sounds of bones cracking tell you the chase is over.

I know what a fast dog is, I know how to judge speed. Not meaning to sound off on you but you hit a nerve or maybe it's the pain medication I'm taking. Back in the 90's there was a kid that wrote an article in the Rabbit Hunter magazine about rabbit hunting with fast dogs. I think it was called 'Speed Kills'

Contrary to popular belief, there are hounds out there that are naturally fast and can run a clean line. Just ask around

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:51 am

I agree with everything BJK has to say on this subject. Dogs that run fast for a short strech, over run the track, then run around until another dog picks the track up, cut in front and do the same thing again are NOT fast, they are just sorry dogs.
A truely fast dog runs the line with a minimum of wasted motion. The best ones I have seen all had exceptional nose and could run well in poor scenting conditions when most dogs struggled. When conditions are good they lift their head up, get up close to the rabbit and stay there. It almost seems like they know which way the rabbit is going to go.
This type of dog is not common but they do exist, and they sure add a lot of excitement to your rabbit hunting.

pete young · Post by **pete young** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:57 am

Cornerstone and Stumbo,
You guys need to be careful lumping all "SPO" dogs in the slow to medium category. If you ever get a chance to watch the Mid-West Gundog Association type "SPO" hounds run, you will probably find that they are as fast as anything that is being run right now. I invite you to come to some of the trials and check out the show. It can get pretty intense sometimes when those hounds are pounding.

HatterasBob · Post by **HatterasBob** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:14 am

Well, I run dogs just about as fast as anyone and they have very good line control and they seldom catch rabbits. That has everything to do with the cover I run in. Fast beagles aren't fast in multifloria rose, but rabbits are. I have never seen a Beagle run a rabbit down from behind, my Brittnays do, but not a Beagle. I don't understand the logic of the medium speed dogs catching rabbits. DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Roy Pasmore · Post by **Roy Pasmore** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:16 am

I run the unclaimed strip mine lands of Ohio full of multiflora rose and anything else that will grow on the spoil banks left by Peabody coal. The dogs I ran for years were competed in UKC hunting beagle forum and ARHA LP forum. I did catch A rabbit with them now and then. At this time I am running A mediam speed dog or pack. When the track ends and one of them carry the rabbit back to you. You would have to say they caught it. This happens quite A bit more with the dogs I run now then before. Still not catching A lot of rabbits but will catch A few every year. I don`t know why. I find these dogs run longer races with out breaking down so often. Putting study pressure on the rabbit . Maybe that is it. As for as speed I have ran every kind of scent hound there is from this country at one time or another. The dog that stays tight in his check area and runs the rabbit as fast as he can when he can. Will bring the rabbit around faster then wind splitters that over run and swing wide to recover. Or as some say heard A rabbit straight to A hole. The kind I ran for several years.

CORNERSTONE · Post by **CORNERSTONE** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:28 am

Pete Young,

My bad.................... I was only talking about the Spo I have seen in my area.

I have heard Mid-west is totally differant

Stumbo's Beagles · Post by **Stumbo's Beagles** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:03 pm

Same thing here pete, I have never seen a Mid-West trial. I was talking about the AKC Small Pack Option (SPO). Like I said I have Tank dogs and I consider them med. speed dogs. They usually run in UKC PP or AKC SPO. IS the Mid-West Gundog Association the same as the AKC SPO?

speed demon · Post by **speed demon** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:25 pm

i agree with all of you to some point.my def. of speed is gaining ground on the rabbit while not breaking down in many check areas or over runnin the line a whole lot. i know i give up some line control due to my dogs speed.but i dont like the slower dogs that you only kill 1 or 2 rabbits all day because it takes them an hour to circle the rabbit.as far as dogs that "cheat",theyre not fast just not good dogs in my opinion.a dog can also go as fast as scenting cond. allow.my dogs on a good day may run an 8 or 9 and some days run only 4 or 5 on other days due to conditions.i like a dog to gain ground onthe rabbit and bring it back and if you miss or cant shoot and the dogs catch it then so be it.dogs done their jobs.me and my buddies run similar type dogs and we breed to catch cause id rather bring home 12 rabbits rather than 2.cant make good stew with only 2.well thats my opinion and what i like in my dogs along with alot of my buddies that i run with.we run ukc beagle competition and have had very good success by runnin than our dogs "cheating".but i wont knock anyones dogs because different strokes for different folks and if a guy wants to run his with mine and his are slower im not gonna knock his dog and tell him how slow they are cause thats the style he prefers and if i think they dogs are good i will tell them they are good dogs just a little slower that "I" prefer but nothing wrong with them in my eyes.a dog that can bring the rabbit to the gun no matter how fast they do it without flaws is a good dog,just not the type i run.so heres my opinion,know what they say "OPINIONS ARE LIKE A**HOLES,EVERYONE HAS ONE".