Question to all beaglers. Open discussion

tom summers · Post by **tom summers** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:07 pm

I dont want to get in a pissing match but lets ask all of ourselves a few questions.

Why wont we pay $400 or more for a started or running pup when there are people that will pay that and much more from a pet store or puppy mill?

Why do we only charge $400 for a running dog when bird hunters will pay thousands for a dog that is started on birds when in my little expierence it takes less time to start bird dog than it does to get a beagle to run a good rabbit?

Is it because we flood the market with hounds?

Are we over breeding the breed?

Is it that pups turn out to be good beagles in lower % than bird dogs turn out?

These arquestions I have asked myself and cannot give real good answers. Maybe others can offer some suggestions.

Jr Walker · Post by **Jr Walker** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:46 pm

You have a point. I cant think of a good answer either. I truely have never thought about it.

But it's a good question

Jr.

KILLNTM · Post by **KILLNTM** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:06 pm

First off, there's no need to pay $400 for a started pup when you can buy one for $150-$200 and start it yourself. It's not that hard if the dog has any instinct at all. I really think it's more to do with the ignorance of the pet buyers who shell out more dough than they need to. Watching a pup's first encounter with a rabbit and watching it mature into a running dog (or not) is one of the biggest pleasures of fooling with hounds. I personally don't think a running beagle is that hard to come up with compared to a birddog. It all boils down to how picky you are. Most birddog folks I know are fairly picky. They're in it for the style and show. To go from pup to polished dog takes some training time. I don't know if beagles are really a flooded market, but in comparison to birddogs I'm sure it seems that way.

BiL

tom summers · Post by **tom summers** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:31 pm

I agree withyou except that I feel we put much more time into begales than bird dogs. I may be wrong but from my understanding most beaglers put 20 hrs. a week or more into beagles an bird dogs they are limiting it to shorter training perios to keep the bird dogs interested. I algree that it is a GREAT pleasure to watcha pup start. but if you break it down in cost this is just an estimate to getting pups started.
Puppy $150 - 400 depending on breeder
Vaccinations $15 up each shot and first 6 mos 3 parvo 1 rabies ($60)
Gas 3 times a week minimum $5 each avg. ($15) lets say 8 wks
Total 150
60
120
Total to cover cost $330
And tht is noprofit for effort.

Post by **Bev** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:47 pm

To me, a good, gun broke beagle (registry papers or not - they don't know the difference) is more valuable than a bird dog or coonhound simply because the cost of keeping him vs. the yield is much better.

Beagles are smaller (less food, less mess) they don't require anything except a 20 ga (if you even want to shoot), a good pair of boots, and a weed patch nearby. Bird dogs in themselves keep piling on the expense way past their purchase price. You need land - lots of it, for a bird dog to do its thing, most have horses - gotta have a trailer for the horses - gotta have a truck to pull the trailer... ad nauseum, and for what - to eat a bird? I can find a good Butterball Turkey in the freezer section for $.99/lb.

Don't get me wrong, I love ALL hunting dogs, heck, I love all dogs period, but as a hunter I would consider a good trained beagle the best bang for the buck on a squillion different levels. I think people who breed, raise, train, and break a good gudog beagle should be compensated appropriately. To me those dogs are worth WAY more than a bird dog, coonhound, etc. I'm not gonna eat coon anytime in the near future, so those are strictly competition dogs to me, which is fine... I'm just sayin'...

When a person breeds and hunts a beagle, trials him until he gets too old for trials but plenty of years left to hunt, $1,000.00 is not too much for a 6-year-old dog if he/she has no serious flaws. I think some beaglers live by a "poor man's attitude" about what they will spend on the purchase of a beagle, but they don't consider how much easier they are to handle, how much more cheaply they are to maintain over a lifetime, and how much meat they can potentially put in your stew pot vs. other hunting dogs - especially those used to run deer to the gun.

JMHO.

doubleb · Post by **doubleb** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:55 pm

its all opinion i have 10 beagles 20 bear dogs 2 coon dogs its harder to start train an mantain big hounds and its not about what you kill or eat its about the chase big game hounds bring more money because their are less of them supply and demand the first post dont fllod the market price will go up also i will not sell a bear dog that has not been sayed no males sold to restict my blood an most are that way why do beaglers not do this becauce they want the credit for the pup greed

mud · Post by **mud** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:17 pm

From my standpoint I think $150 for a pup is plenty to invest.Since I don't trial.I guess that makes my perspective different. Some People that trial week to week spend huge amounts of money trying to champion a dog.To recoup money I understand that they need to sell for top dollar.I use beagling as a hobby. By the time I add up shots dog feed time in the field.I always lose money and expect to.Due to family and college obligations for children I would never think of spending a $1000 for an older dog.Thats just me nothing wrong in spending twice that much if a person so chooses. I gun hunt with people that trial in several different formats.What I have to hunt with does not shame me. I have ran with past ARHA world hunt winners and AKC midwest field champions.To me big money does not always make the dog.Maybe I am just cheap.LOL Again I am no expert on outstanding dogs since I have only owned 2 that fit my criteria in over 30 years.Both were grade dogs... An example of what I am talking about is a hunting buddy bought a young 10 month old male.He hunts decent has an outstanding mouth.Runs a track with speed getting his share of checks with broke dogs.No trash handles.You can call and put him on a rabbit.Not sure about the gun.He gave $100 for him.Again all about one mans interpertation.To me this is a decent young prospect others might consider him junk.Good topic good discussion.

Post by **Bev** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:34 pm

mud wrote:...An example of what I am talking about is a hunting buddy bought a young 10 month old male.He hunts decent has an outstanding mouth.Runs a track with speed getting his share of checks with broke dogs.No trash handles.You can call and put him on a rabbit.Not sure about the gun.He gave $100 for him.

Ahhh, he paid $100 for him, but what would it take to buy the dog from him once he's had a couple of great gun seasons over him? That's my point... If he has a couple of good seasons over the dog, would he sell the dog to me for $200? Afterall, that's a 100% profit...

mud · Post by **mud** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:58 pm

Your right Bev.All about perspective.Cheap old me could stand the $200 maybe even $300 heck that sounds like pup prices to me from what I am hearing.I think I will ask him what he wants.LOL

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:27 pm

Hey Folks,
I've been off on the sidelines for a while now trying to mend fences on this place, and in my spirit I guess. The hounds hsve been running good (when we get out) and are sleek and hard as nails right now. It has been a tough one for me though this spring because I lost my two absolute favorite bitches of all time, Candy (12years) and Mousie (10 years and got cancer). Candy (a Grade hound)was a run till you drop hound and taught Mousie well. I still remember an ARHA PP Penn. State hunt when after the winners cast was over and the hounds had run in 90 degree heat, through multiflora rose, and were all covered in blood, Candy was still crawling and ripping at here lead to get back in the bush. And I still remember one of the other handlers looking at me in almost disgust, as the other hounds were done and ready to quit and call it a day and he said "What the hell is wrong with that hound". I just smiled and walked away dragging Candy back to the club house. As tough as Candy was though, Mousie was my heart when it came to this sport, and will be a difficult thing to bounce back from for me. It just ain't the same! She would come running anytime I called (unless on a rabbit), jump in the cab of the truck and go get rabbits, coffee or Mc Donalds the minute I told her "jump in". I could barely keep her in her kennel because she would crawl, climb or chew through anything I ever put her in just to go running. She was the ring leader and the matriarch after Candy slowed a pace or two. There were times she would be running corn fields and soy bean fields all day and night with the ones she helped escape with her, and come home only by the sound of my truck horn and whistles with muzzle raw and bleeding and eyes swollen shut. She put the same qualities in her pups and taught the others that I started with her. Sorry about the long winded ramblings! I guess when it comes to this topic it makes me think exactly what my hounds mean to me, and how I would ever begin to put a price tag on one of my hounds. I guess thats why I have given to those that I like, hounds for free or in exchange for things I don't even need or want in some cases just to get them in homes where the will be cared for and loved as much as I do the ones I keep. It is sort of like the commercial I guess! A well bred puppy 200 dollars, a well started hound 400 hundred dollars.......a real rabbit hound, hunting companion, heart stealing source of pride....Priceless!

Just my 2 cents,
NYH

beaglehandler · Post by **beaglehandler** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:56 pm

I would agree with NYHillbilly. I do it for the love of the dogs. I enjoy going out and turning the dogs loose and hearing them run. I enjoy the people I have met thru beagling. I wouldn't think of putting a price on my dogs. It is my hobby. Bev, if you read this post please think of our best moment. Red and Fancy. Enough said. I bet you are smiling?

Post by **Bev** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:54 pm

LMAO, Andy!!! I will NEVER forget our part in the breeding of those two dogs as long as I live. If I wind up in a nursing home with Alzheimer's I will remember that. *diiiiiiiiiiiiiies* We were dripping the sweat, laughing our butts off, and embarrassed as hell, LOL. Just to find out Redd was sterile at that point. Supid things like that bond people in this sport...

What we do for the love of dogs...

tom summers · Post by **tom summers** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:11 am

I dont think any of us would put a price on our hounds that we have had that we feel are irreplacable, but what about the ones that are just good rabbit dogs? Is it realistic to say that they are worth that much less or is it that we wish to no longer deal with what we think are thier faults that we do not like, and if it is faults that we do not like why do we send them ot into public with the potential of passing on those faults? Now I know of those that do not allow this they dispatch of the faulty hound, myself I have a hard time doing that. I would just as soon give the hound away as a pet without papers. I am not sure what the fair price is?
Is it what the market will bare?
Is it the cost of not having the hound in our kennels any longer?
Is it the money that comes back to our kennels to of set our cost?
Once again these are just questions because I truly that the majority of us in this great sport are in it for the true pleasure of a hound or hounds driving a rabbit the way we feel it should be done and not the profit as I do not know of many of us that make a profit on our hounds when all cost are figured in.
I also do not know if we will ever come up with the answers but it is good conversation.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:29 am

Saturated market , has killed retail end of it plenty of good hounds for sale . To many to chose from . People as always find it to easy to give up on young dogs and move em . Trash and Treasure . Car guy take on it

I wish in had stock in PROP .

Emery · Post by **Emery** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:59 am

I think it has a lot to do with mentality/perception too. You ask anyone that isn't a beagle hunter about paying $500 for a beagle and you get a look of "Are you crazy!?" from the person you are talking to. Heck, it is just a beagle, why would you pay that much for a beagle?

Joe the beagle hunter doesn't have much money. He wants the dog to hunt with to be able to put meat on the table. If it runs a rabbit and doesn't have too many flaws, it will suit him fine. $100 for the pup is a real stretch to his pocket book.

Next, you have Suzie the animal lover. She gives to the humane society not realizing the underlying results of her benevolence. She goes to the mall and sees the pet store and goes inside to admire all the cute little animals. She thinks she is doing the right thing by buying one to give it a good home, (And in a sense, she is.) not realizing that she just supported another puppy mill. She also doesn't bat an eye at paying $600 for that cute little beagle puppy, must be a well bred puppy to have a price tag like that on it. AND, it comes with APR papers to boot.

Then you have Johnny and Mary with dual incomes, nice paying jobs, nice house and a couple kids. Johnny had labss as a kid but wants to go rabbit hunting. He doesn't have time to train a pup so he buys already started or finished dogs. Money isn't an object to him and he doesn't want to spend a lot of time training, he just wants to hunt. So, he goes out and buys something with a FC in front of its name and spends $1000 per dog. He thinks he got himself a great deal.

It is all perception and what a person thinks is reasonable.