$50 grade beagle advocate

[Dogdreamer]

I just wanted to get something fun going. The best thing in the world for a new beagler to hear is the vets going to town about their oppinions. Gives us a lot of new ideas, or changes our thought process when dealing with the dogs. Well, what I wanted to ask was...what do you guys and gals think about the $50 grade beagle?

My dad, God love him, is a particularly strong advocate for them. Although he spent big bucks on a shetland sheep dog because of the faults in his original dog. He says a hunting dog is a hunting dog is a hunting dog. My take on it is a hunting dog bred with God knows what results in God knows what. I am not a gambler...I haven't got the money to find that diamond in the rough. So, I tend to lean toward the percentage. Not a math major either, but 50% FCH x 50% FCH seems a lot more likely to = FCH.

Just my rookie thoughts. I would like to hear your ideas on the matter. As a matter of fact, let us know about your best non-registered dog. Tell us why she was better than those high falootin' trial dogs.

Rules: No kennel bashing (the kennel name is irrelevant, we are celebrating the grade dog here), don't hit below the belt, don't ruin someone's good lie (we all like to hear them, even if we know better), and bring your best non-registered dog.

Let the discussion begin!

[blackdirt beagles]

ive got a 5 year old grade (arha) female that no money could buy. she is a 5th generation breeding of my uncles kennel. she has high end arha lp speed but sticks directly on the line. not a bit wild. on an open run she will be ahead of the pack by 30 feet, and we dont have any slow dogs. shes fun to run if someone has a trashy dog. if it aint a rabbit, she will get to you as fast as she can and just sit with you and watch everyone chase down their dogs. were gonna breed her this spring and probably keep the whole litter. some people call her a "grade dog", but i call her a "rabbit dog".

[PAPPY]

Looking at the math major part:I think it is proven that a hound will get half of it's generic makeup from each of two parents,right?So we take a 50%FCH x 50% FCH and and attribute half of each(25%)factor and we have 50%FCH,right? OK now let's look at grade :A grade dog gets half of good and bad from each parent so the best we can hope for is,it will either make a FCH or it won't make a FCH which should come out to 50% FCH,right??

[Chuck Terry]

IMHO it is all breeding but it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether the dog is registered or not. I have seen all kinds in every registry and among the grade group as well. Whether the lineage is on parchment, a paper sack, or in someone head, I want particulars about the most recent three generations before I will even consider owning the beagle.

[bowhunter59]

I GOT A FEMALE I DONT KNOW WHO THE DDAM OR SIRE IS AND SHE IS A GREAT DOG BETTER THAN BOTH MY AKC DOGS I CLOULDNT SELL FOPR AS MUCH IS ALL!BREEDING THE AKC'S IF THEIR PUPS DONT TURN OUT GOOD RUNNERS I AM GOIN BACK TO GRADE BECAUS ETHE ONES I';VE HAD HAVE BEEN REAL GOOD DOGS !MIGHT UKC THEM SO I CAN COME BEAT UR AKC IN COMPETITION!

[Bsbowhunter]

The standard in which I hold all other dogs to is my 3.5 year old male beagle/basset cross. I had bought him out of the local classifieds for $75. The add just said "beagle pups from good rabbit stock". As he grew, his torso lengthened and his legs stayed fairly short. He weighs about 40 pounds (lean) and can tear up a rabbit. Surprisingly, he is med/fast in speed and is perfect in line control and checks.
I now only buy "high dollar" conformation perfect beagles, worthy of either the bench or the field, but often wonder if I too am a victom of merchandizing. I'll let you know in about 5 to 6 years. I'm proud of the foundation stock I've acquired and have invested more than most would of. But......only time will tell if it was a wise investment or not. On a side note, this board is made up of trialers, hunters and pet owners. It's been a wonderful experience to mingle with this diverse crowd.

[Drive-On Kennels]

Dogdreamer to answer your firt question. A $50 dollar dog,you usualy get what you pay for,Oh you might get lucky,but most times not with a 50 dollar dog. registered or not.
Blackdirt beagles answered your next paragraphs very well. His favorite beagle is a 5 generation from his Uncles kennel. and I bet his Uncle could tell you all about the hunting style of those generations,and could even make record of them on Paper. Hey wait a minute wouldn't that be just like a registerd dogs pedigree
Does anyone else see a pattern here

[Derek Edge]

I think it is important to remember that a grade dog can have just as good of a pedigree as any FTC, just not on paper. Why is it that we have grade dogs? Because just maybe, the owner of the AKC registered parents chose not to register the pups. Now, lets say that when the pups are old enough to breed and the same guy breeds back to his registered dogs, like linebreeding. These would be grade dogs, permitted they were'nt registered. They have the same bloodline right? Would they not be as good as a registered dog? I don't think so, because like they say, the papers don't run the rabbit. Now, maybe in the cases were just two old good for nothing beagles were bred, then this would be the best case to use the term "grade dog". I sale all my pups without papers to local rabbit hunters, without any problems, from $50.00 to $75.00. The pups that I keep out of the same litter, I register with the AKC, just incase I decide to go to a field trial. I just think that too much emphasis is placed on the fact that a dog that is "grade" can in no way be as good as a registered dog--bullcrap! For the everyday rabbit hunter, buying a $400.00 dog, would be a waste of money. If the dog isn't going to be used to win a trophy, money or whatever the heck else, then what is the need? Do we ever just rely on one dog? I dont. Today, I might say that one of my dogs is better than the other, but tomorrow, it might be a totally different dog that gets bragged on. I guess that the only exception to the rule may be where a person buys a older dog for $50.00, then yes, I would watch out, because it is most likely someones "cull". But, when buying pups, you can never tell. This is just my take on the topic, and is not meant to offend anyone.

[Boomer]

You can get a great dog for $50, and you can get a poor dog for $1000. There's always some gambling involved. If the $50 dogs were known to be hot stuff, you wouldn't be able to buy them for $50. A $1000 dog is expected to be hot stuff, which is why it costs $1000. I have one dog that I spent $500 on one for his pedigree and lifetime health guarantee, and I think the money was well-spent. I have another that was found running alongside the highway, went unclaimed and unwanted, and that ended up being ours for free. Both of them are priceless to me.

As for breeding "two 50% FCs together"...if you assume each parent has one "FC gene" (let's call it chromosome "A") and one "non-FC gene" (let's call it chromosome "B") you can also get the bad gene from the genes from each of the parents, which would give you a "0% FC," or you can get the good gene from each, giving you a "100% FC." In a litter of 4, you're likely to get two 50%s (one AB and one BA), one 0% (BB), and one 100% (AA) FC. But you could also have 4 0%s, or 4 50%s, or 4 100%s, or different combinations of each, depending on which direction Mother Nature decides to push the laws of probability that day . It's a lot more complicated than that, but that's kind of how genetics works. A bigger issue can just be the compatability of the parents. Do you breed two together with the same strengths and weaknesses, or do you breed together two with different strengths and weaknesses to compliment each other in the hopes of diluting the weaknesses while accepting that you may be diluting the strengths at the same time?

If you want to spend $500-1000 for a dog, you have to know what you're paying for and decide if you want to pay for that. If you're spending that money just b/c the seller claims the dog has a good pedigree, maybe that's not worth the money. If that's the pedigree you've been looking for all along, maybe it's worth it to you. If the seller is giving you a lifetime guarantee against genetic health defects, maybe that's worth the money, too. If you're paying extra for AKC papers because you want to breed AKC registerable litters in the future, then maybe it's ok for you. Someone looking just for a dog to go hunting with and never planning on breeding AKC litters has no use for papers.

[Bev]

Well put, Boomer!

[stanimals2]

Well Ive said it before and Ill say it again with no direspect to anyone. In my mind there are two kind of houndsman, Those who like to brag about how much there dogs are worth and the ones who like to tell those people how much their grade dog cost after it kicks thier 3500.00 dogs butts .I dont trial and I dont breed for a living so I dont care what the papers say, show me a dog that hits the brush hard, runs a rabbit with minumal checks, comes when i call it and stays off trash. To this day no one has been able to prove to me that these traits are for registered dogs only. Over the years I have paid good money for registered dogs that were not worth a crap and I ve been given dogs that were no beter. Its just easier to say this free dog sucks than it is to say FREE to good home son of a field champ over 250.00 invested. Regardless of which category we fall in I hope we all do it for the thrill of the hunt. Happy huntin, Stan

[DarrinG]

I have heard of some paying as much as $6,000 and beyond for a dog. I heard one fella say that the dog he paid $5,000 for was in his words "the buy of a lifetime"!!!

Then I was out on a PP cast once and ran with a super-nice gentleman. I noticed his little gyp at the cast pole because she was a real looker, good conformation and coloration, etc. This little gyp won our cast and deserved it. She hunted hard and ran good. When we got back to the club house I asked him about his little gyp. He stated he had no idea what she was out of, that he had picked her up for free at a local animal shelter as a puppy. The litter owner had turned her into the shelter as an unwanted puppy! So this "free" unregistered beagle beat out several registered dogs (that we had paid for!) on this particular cast.

That being said, I still prefer registered dogs, especially for breeding material. I like to know what kind of genes I am putting in the deck before I let the shuffling begin!

[DG TX]

The $50 grade pup has a place on this earth. And it can be registered now with UKC & NKC and a fellow can have lots of fun hunting & trialing with it.
Or it can just be hunted with and all is HAPPY! It all about where you plan to go with your hound.
They tell me that George Nixon had a sign over the mantle in his house that said "This is the house that Carson built" and I think it literally ment that. He knew where he wanted to go with his hounds and the $50 grade pup did not suit him. Stories say George turned down between $25'000 to $35'000 for Pearson Creek Carson back in the 60's.
To each his own and may each be happy!

[Jake]

I started off with a grade hound and As time went on and I got more money I bought registerd hounds and paid dearly for some. Now I have a good kennel and i raise my own and sell them. I breed my grade stuff and my reg stuff back and forth and all around cuz if it was'nt a good hound I would not keep it. But this year I stoped registering all my dogs. I am just tiered of paying all the money and tired of fighting all the paper work. I keep a ledger of my own and can tell you the parents of any dog I raise all I need is the name of the person who bought it from me. I just am tired of giveing the money i work for to the registreys. I think this is how alot of "grade dogs" became Grade dogs. somwhere down the line somebody got tired of paying all the money.
The best hound i have is a 6 year old grade hound. She has a good nose and is just the right speed for me. She also handles like a dream. I have been offered $500 for her twice. The second time the man asked me what she was out of after he offerd me the money When I said she was a Grade hound he said "Oh then I don't want her at all" I laughed because grade hound or not he knew she was a good dog.
By the way the dog was given to me.
Jake

[Dogdreamer]

Hey all,
Just wanted to let you all know that I was reading the posts. Lots of good info and stories. All said and done, I will be getting registered dogs. Thanks for the math lesson boomer, I needed it.
Also, thanks for the little tales of the grade "free" dogs winning big. Every blue blooded american loves the underdog. lol Thanks again.