I Need Advice

[snowshoehareguide]

joe i guess weve found something else to argue about, ill give up my shock collar when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. you can give comand if you want. when setting a dog up that run trash i often do hollar no. i also tend to use plenty of electricity. with a young pup i shock him the instant he puts his nose in track and run for truck . hes right behind me he thinks those deer or moose or coyote , whatevr is bad news, if youve had a bad experience with shock collars you might try them again. by using them alot on dogswhen i go hunting, they arent afraid of them they associate with going hunting just like gun or leash no fear at all. thats the difference with lower settings , no external antenna , smaller so i can use them alot, my older dog knows what they are he doesnt like it . he was broke off deer with old style 5 years ago. i havent had a beagle run a deer since other than pups and young dogs i put on deer on purpose. if i wanted i could hunt all winter and never see a deer track. they yard up here . i occasionally run young dogs in and around deer yard and if i do i guarantee they will wear a shock collar. if they run a deer they will get zapped . run a dog down and shake him id like to see that. i dont think the chances are that good of catching a dog when hes running deer . you might get them on first circle but next one deer might go for miles pete

[Ed]

Have to cast another vote for the e-collar. Used properly, it's the best tool for most anything I can think of. Just use the old "noggin". If you don't, THAT'S WHEN YOU'LL RUIN THE DOG!!!!!! You have to be smarter than him.

[Phillip Smith]

The E-collar is not a cure all but is the best training tool ever for hound men. Since I've started using them my dogs are much bolder and out going then before. A man would really have to work at it to ruin a dog with the E-collar. But I'm sure some do.

[bowhunter59]

ur not supposed to make the dog scream its meant to get there att. not kill it! used correctly it will take a bad habits and make it a much better dog. i bought one that backtracked bad after about 4 trips out with that coller on if he went to turn around he would look at me first and then would do what waas right!

[stanimals2]

Well with respect for all I have used both a collar and the tail flooging methods. I have to dissagree with Mr. West on one point, when an E collar is used corretly it combines the shock with voice commands. The negitive reinforcement (screaming no catching the dog spanking ect.) only works if you can catch the dog while on track thats where the E collar shines the instant the dog bumps trash you have the ability to correct them BUT with either method if there on a rabbit and not trash you can ruin a dog in a heart beat. Once a dog has bumped trash I have used both methods over the years with great success by doing the following: I like to drive around areas I have permission to hunt in the evenings looking for deer when I find them I walk the dog across them if he opens up give him a shock with firm no commands or with a 30 foot check cord and a chocker collar allow him to open up and give a firm yank on the cord with strong voice commands. It usually only take 2 to 3 evenings to break a dog and then theres those that were born deer dogs, my advice then is to find a connection down south where the can use dogs and enjoy the wealth. Good luck and happy huntin, Stan

[Joe West]

Pete: you shock them off of hare too? Every rabbit smells different too. but if it works for deer why not rabbit? Your method with the shock collar is different then most. Most don't give a command that can be associated with the shock. I'm not sure I like the running back to the truck thing. We've always instilled in the hounds that we are their home base and whenever they are in doubt they come to us. Perhaps it is a tendency in this strain but a number of them will run back to us and stack as if they were pointers pointing to the direction they have encountered deer when they first encounter them. After ruining the first one I had seen do this I learned to praise them and snap the lead on and walk them away when this happens. Your method would cancel that for us.

The only chance of the hound being ruined with the method we use is if the hound is not corrected off of deer. We use a rule of thumb of three strikes and your out. That is if they are not broke in three deer instances then they're out. But learned a lesson one time when we didn't like the way a bitch responded to her third correction and we gave her away and her new owner told us she never ran a deer again. There can be no absolutes in beagling was hammered home again. But if the hound is not easily broke off deer then we don't want him anyway. We beleive that if you breed only those hounds that are corrected easily off deer then you will end up with a higher percentage of hounds who are easily corrected off deer and also a higher percentage of naturally striaght hounds. The reverse would be true as well.


Intentionally putting the hound on off game sends them two signals one is you are expecting them to run the off game (they read you better then you read them) and the other is don't run the off game.

[snowshoehareguide]

joe when dogs are running and its time to go home or move i call them if they keep running i shock on low levl.i have done this with 4 dogs this year 3 will come back with theyre tail wagging just like you had a hot dog in your hand. they just accept that they have to .and they come in and i praise them up a little. and after a few times ill just call and push warning tone . the 4th dog ran deer and was broke with extreme measures about 5 years ago . he still doesnt like a shock collar. he knows to come when hes called but that doesnt mean he has to like it and thats kind of his whole attitude, he will retrieve a hare when hes way out there when he wears collar . he knows i can get him. he resents the whole thing . i dont think the other dogs have a clue its the collar shocking them . i know if i walk a out to doghouse with collar in hand they just love it ,they know theyre going hunting. with my old collars i only used them for trash breaking . if i put dogs on deer intentionally it doesnt hurt to give them a poke whether they run the deer or not . i shock them as soon as i know theyve smelled it. i will do this with all my dogs when i get a chance. moose deer coyote fisher. most of he time im talking about bear dogs but beagles get same treatment, i have very little trash problem and i used to have plenty , pete

[Joe West]

Pete: How is it that you keep their trust after intentionally putting them on off game and then shocking them?

How many hounds do you keep and how many don't make the grade each year?

I have to admit that I find your methods fascinateing, they are the complete opposite of everything I've learned of hounds.
I'd like to hear more detail.

How do you keep them from knowing about the collar? Hounds are quite smart and they tend to figure things out right quick.

Do you ever take them out without the collar on and if so do you notice any cahnges in their demeaner?

I have to admitt I could make a study of hounds trained as you do the written word doesn't take the place of actually seeing. I would be most interested in their personalities especially. Any meanness?

[steve]

I also use my e-collar exact same way Pete does,when it's time to go they best be coming or they get the warning buzzer if this doesn't bring them in shortly they get lite juice applied.I have 8yr old doesn't like to come in with collar he has a new attitude, and I've not wrecked a single dog yet.My theory is I feed them they don't feed me so when it's time to go, or trash running I have no room for hard headed,bull headed or plain old stupid dogs.And when i'm 60-70 yrs old I'm not gonna be chasing dogs around that's not hunting to me.

[Chris]

It would take a lot more than one shock to ruin a good hound off of rabbits. It's a myth that they can be so easily ruined There has been too much positive reinforcement on rabbits for that to happen so easily. Their (at least my dog's) desire to run hare is so strong that it'd take a minor miracle to ruin any of them off running them.

I have to admit that I don't shock while they're actually running, UNLESS they have seen me trying to get them and they try to go out around me. THEN they want to have their tail wrapped to the green screw, because they're gonna' get the juice. Has only happened once.

Usually, I'll wait for a check, then start calling. I'll look at my watch and count off 4 minutes, while calling every 10 seconds or so. If the dog doesn't come, then they get bumped on #2. I call some more and watch my watch for 2 more minutes. If they still don't come, then they get bumped on #3. It never goes beyond that.

You've got to remember, Joe, that this is only after countless hours of obedience training and showing them exactly what they're expected to do, to the point of them know for absolute certainty what I expect. If they disobey me, after they know in their heart what I want from them, then they're going to feel the repurcussions. Just like children -- if you let them get away with it there will be no end. If you issue a command, then don't follow through on it; you lose credibility. When I call them to me, they will obey. Period. They have no alternative. Except, I guess, to find a new home. Folks marvel at how my dogs handle. They can't believe that the dogs don't bark when I go out to feed them. They can't believe it that, when they ride with me for 2 or 3 hours to go hunting, the dogs don't make one sound in the dog box. They can't believe it that I can call them in from 200 yards on a short loss in the run. It doesn't come without a lot of training, and the use of a shock collar.

[Joe West]

Chris: how do you keep them from barking in the kennel and why is that beneficial that they don't bark at feeding time? How do you keep them from making any noise in the box and how is that beneficial? How many hounds do you keep and how many don't make the grade each year?

[Jim Orman]

I use my Collars same as Pete. Hav never had a Dog collar shy. When it is time to go home I can call y Hounds off a rabbit if I have too. When you are Hunting next to busyroads and peoples Houses going to trials you must have a Dogs that handle. I only keep 3-4 Dogs at a time but thjat is plenty for me to train. Most guys I know that have over 5 hounds there hounds usually dont handle ver ell.

[Joe West]

Jim: Naturally the amount of time you can spend with each hound lessens when you have more hounds. If you have twenty you have less time for individual training then if you have 4, with thirty you have less and so on. The more you have the mopre important it is to have tractable hounds.

Chris, Pete, Tell us more!

[DarrinG]

Joe, in all respect, can you tell US how you run down a hound on a trash run and shake him? Is your preference brace style beagles (walkie talkies)? How long does it take you to run 500 yards? Are you a professional marathon runner?

No disrespect intended, but I do not see the possibility of the average person being able to run down and catch the even average-speed beagle in pursuit of a deer through cover. I am a decently healthy fella and I would not attempt it! Not without an oxygen bottle and an ambulance standing by!

I am genuinely curious as to just how you sprint like a impala and catch deer runners off the track.

[Joe West]

Darrin: It's the down command. Don't actually have to be right on the hounds for the down command to work. Plus I know the territory I hunt and if and when a deer run starts I generally know which way they are headed and don't have a whole lot of trouble cutting them off. I don't chase after them because I would not catch them but rateher I go to where they are going. Now you don't have to get to touch the hounds just close enough for the down command to work so generally speaking forty yards is as close as you have to get. Lots of hounds will down on the line from farther then that though.

Now I don't worry if it takes a while to get to them because I haven't found the length of time they are running the deer to be a problem in correcting them so long as they don't get away completely. I'm not as worried as some are to get it done quick just get it done right and that starts long before the deer chase does.