modern day hounds

[MasonsBeagles]

ok i was out a while and got back in a few years ago. watching and looking at different dogs. whats your opinion on the last 10 yrs or more with the direction people have bred these hounds?

Personally:
1. I think the internet is great! There is not a dog or bloodline we dont have access to now.
2. I think people more so than ever are breeding based on Trophies and Ribbons and not traits
3. I think most folks still dont fully know what type of dog they like and base their decisions on trial records.

Lets keep it civil

[main event`s beagles]

i am guilty of putting trial success to be going in the right direction and i lost my vision or lack there of!! great topic

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Might just as well throw my 2 cents in.
I think the internet is both a boon and a bane. It used to be you wanted to see a hound run to form your opinion or at least get the opinion of someone you knew and trusted their judgement on hounds.Now with the internet I think there can be a tendency to take shortcuts.
People used to say about guys that were advertising hounds in the magazines 'Paper will lay still for anything you want to put on it". Well the internet is equally guilty if not more so as now people post anonymously.
On the plus side we definitely can become more aware of the hounds that are out there .
As far as people breeding more nowadays for trophies and ribbons well -- I think that's always been a problem. Especially for those that have puppy sales in mind and / or are profit motivated.
My guess is that the guys that are riding the trial circuit every weekend,driving hundreds of miles to attend trials,using handlers,sending dogs to trials with others,etc. already know what they want traits wise and what kennels,studs,bloodlines,etc. are producing those type of hounds that are enjoying success in a particular format.
Problem is that the hard core trial guys occupy a very small % of the beaglers / rabbit hunters / pleasure runners yet they get most of the attention,do most of the advertising,promoting studs,etc. So what often happens is that Joe rabbit hunter buys a pup based on his parents trialing success without knowing more as to how that line will suit how he uses his hounds and what traits he wants them to have.
A guy that likes to trail ride his horse in the mountains sure as heck doesn't want a Kentucky thoroughbred.Pick for the traits you desire not necessarily for a performance record.

[Mike McPherson]

I agree good and bad internet is nice for seeing these little video clips and reading some nice stories. I think many people are in search for the dog that will turn everyone's head, there fore they start by looking for the big name. Now there are some great FC, IFC Natl. Champions and so on. If you are looking to trial it makes perfect sense to go in that direction, look for a dog that excells in the format you will be running. If you are looking to gun hunt or pleasure run look right in your neighbor hood. There is a good chance there is a few good ones in someones back yard that do very well in your area. It is said that a good hound is a good hound regardless of where you put it down. That is probably on the most part true. I would rather start with a dog from a long line of snow hounds for here in the North Country. If i was in the south I would want a line that did well in the heat and dry conditions. The swamp lands of the lower mid west a line of water hounds. Just my thoughts.
Hunt-Em-Up

[Beagle Huntsman]

Here's an interesting quote from Lloyd Brackett, who became famous for creating the Long-Worth German Shepherds in the 1950s....I think this relates somewhat to Points #2 and 3 made by Mason:

"In the dog game those who criticize the system of line breeding far outnumber its proponents. This is true for several reasons. There is a continual influx of beginners in breeding dogs, people who have never before mated one animal to another, or made any study of the subject. In their ignorance they believe that mating two dogs with "pedigrees", especially if both are winners, or better vet, "Champions", is all there is to it.

Then, there are a multitude of breeders who refuse to take the time to make any study of genetics, who want only to breed dogs to sell and make money, and these have no interest in breed improvement through years of planned effort. Again, we have the many hit-or-miss breeders who hope for the good luck which sometimes strikes novices who by sheer accident come up with a real "topper" or two. In listing the opponents of closed-up (line) breeding, one should not fail to mention owners of stud dogs, hungry for stud fees.

Fortunately there are in almost all breeds of dogs a very few fanciers intent upon consistently producing dogs superior to the average of the breed. Many of these know that the quickest and most certain way to do this is by line breeding."

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Beagle Huntsman
Well said.

[S.R.Patch]

Intent upon consistently producing dogs superior to the average of the breed.

That's a pretty tall order, in a pretty simple statement.
That's what I find frustrating in reading a lot of these books, a lack of deep diving detail into the process. It's easy to make the statement "line breed" to get better hounds, but coming to the point where you can line breed to individuals for continued improvement requires wrapping up the desired genetics to be prepotent to being passed on, while at the same time having eliminated mental and physical faults to a minimum all within a group of related hounds.
I often think of those lucky few who got a "breeding pair" from Willet Randall. You were purchasing decades of work in trial and error and the cake had been mostly baked for you. The correspondence raising an reporting back for guidance and evaluation of a pair from this breeder would have been invaluable and no doubt he would want you happy as you followed his instructions.
Most times writing a book is easier, than writing a successful legacy...jmho

[Beagle Huntsman]

Patch:
If you research Brackett, you will find he did back up his writings with results, and he gave detailed directions to others who wished to do the same. From what I have read, he created the top kennel of German Shepherds in about a 12 year period of time. He was a believer in line breeding, and made use of the “Rule of Five” method, which is let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam. This puts the same hound in the second and third generation of the pedigree, effectively line breeding to that (great) dog. If someone said they were “line breeding”, his response was “to what?”. He also believed in inbreeding, but never outcrosses, as long as things were going well. There is a lot to be learned from Lloyd Brackett.

[S.R.Patch]

Hi Tim,
I don't doubt he knew what "line breeding" was, but I've come to favor dogs from the bitch line, strong in heart and constitution. I think it was Beckford that early promoted the dog for conformation and courage and the bitch line for hunting prowlers genetics. I like to look at dogs from that grand bitch.
I may be precarious on shepherds, as I've never been a fan. The over angulation of the rear and the squattty look, many with hip and spine trouble. I did enjoy reading of the development of the German Shorhair hunter tho.
I'm reading "Beagling" by W.Lovell Hewitt recently.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Patch: You would like the Newton Rycroft book if you don’t already have it.

[S.R.Patch]

ok i was out a while and got back in a few years ago. watching and looking at different dogs. whats your opinion on the last 10 yrs or more with the direction people have bred these hounds?

Personally:
1. I think the internet is great! There is not a dog or bloodline we dont have access to now.
2. I think people more so than ever are breeding based on Trophies and Ribbons and not traits
3. I think most folks still dont fully know what type of dog they like and base their decisions on trial records.

Lets keep it civil

I think big running hounds need big country, and the companion hounds should hunt with and for it's master. This reminded me of what Mike Yates told me when he acquired the patch hounds from Willet Randall. He said there was about 2000 acres around him and when he first cast his hounds he had gotten, he didn't know if he'd get them back or not. Now these were all grown hounds and used to hunting the grand expanse of the
Adirondack Mts. . He next went about breeding from these and selecting those pups who wanted to hunt with him and were close to the line and trash free. He said in 40 yr. he never broke a hound, as he had three deer camps that would give him $100 for every deer runner he produced, quite a blessing to a man before the invent of the shock collar.
I think the "modern day hound" has to be a thorough hunter, tractable and possesses a great desire to work for and please it's master or at least that's what I hope for. The days of running down or cutting off hounds has passed for me, as my brother has recently learned, breeding and keeping cattle should become easier, not harder and more costly work. I was happy to hear his spring cull and his reasoning,... experience is the best teacher, but she's painfully slow.,,lol... a cull proven out from a costly bloodline can cost you yrs of time and money, don't paper over the failure of the flesh...jmho

[tommyg]

Nothing helps breeding more than watching the hound you breed to run. Bernard Mulinex (Mt. State hounds) had the best breeding philosophy I’ve ever heard of. He told me he wouldn’t breed to a hound that couldn’t beat his in the field. He had some of the best (Buddy One)! That being said I wish I had took his advise more often. I went the flavor of the month route a few times, never again. Knowing knowledgeable hounds men will never hurt. Put your best on the ground with the hound you want to breed to if that hound is better breeding it should improve what you have.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Even more important than watching the hound is knowing the family behind him, since that will affect what he produces more than he will. We are all products (good or bad) of what we came from.

Bernard was an interesting fellow. I remember him telling me at a trial that he “liked deer because they made trails for you in the woods”. In those days, we all hated deer, so his comment caught my attention. In the years since, I have often thought about his comment as I followed a deer trail through some thick cutover trying for a better look at the running pack.

[Newt]

ok i was out a while and got back in a few years ago. watching and looking at different dogs. whats your opinion on the last 10 yrs or more with the direction people have bred these hounds?

Personally:
1. I think the internet is great! There is not a dog or bloodline we dont have access to now.
2. I think people more so than ever are breeding based on Trophies and Ribbons and not traits
3. I think most folks still dont fully know what type of dog they like and base their decisions on trial records.

Lets keep it civil

I agree with that. Been there done that.
It surely gives more opportunity for Scams , taking advantage of the inexperienced, or folks who don't really know what it takes to run a rabbit in their area.

[billy boy]

I just pleasure hunt but i think a strong bitch line will help a breeding program more than anything. Most people want to see a stud dog run, that's ok but i'd mush rather watch several pups out of different crosses from him run if possible. One of the things that can hurt a studs reputation is a lot of people will take any ol female that don't even know what a rabbit is and breed and expect great pups. Some can get lucky but most the time you will get maybe mediocre hounds if lucky. Some champion males are not reproducers, some average hounds can be great reproducers but i think you can take a really good female and your odds of getting good hounds will increase, jmo