out of state deer hunters

[mobeagle]

Down here in Louisiana, we dont shoot a man's hunting dog, period. No exceptions. I stay with the hounds while hunting, run e-collars on everyone of them and hunt on private land that I either own, lease, or have written permission to hunt on. In over 30 years I have never had one shot that I know of. If I knew someone shot one of mine intentionally, I dont need to find the dog or have permission to come on someones property to look for the animal because it's fixing to get a whole lot worse than trespassing anyway. You only need proof if you plan on taking someone to court over it. If some ole boy shoots my hound on purpose, court aint fixing to give me no satisfaction, I will personally take it out of their azz. The majority of houndsman around here feel the same way, that is why we understand one another and dont cross that line. I respect the deer hunter's right's and I expect them to show me the same. Word spreads fast around here. Most folks that would shoot a man's hound would also probably like to run their mouth about it to their buddies at the local watering hole. Sooner or later, the hound's owner will find out and then we got ourselves a bad situation. However, I would never turn my hounds loose and run somewhere just to aggravate somebody. I treat the deer hunters right and in return, after deer season I can usually count on getting to run rabbits on their leases. All hunter's need to stick together no matter what kind of hunting we do or else the anti hunting group is gonna make outlaws out of all of us. I am thankful that I live where I do. Most folks understand common courtesy around here and will also handle their own problems if the need arises. Lastly, if a man dont understand the difference between culling you own worthless hound and shooting a man's hunting dog, I doubt if I could explain it to him anyway.

Well said. I agree with nearly all of that. We as hunters should stick together.

[littlewoody]

In my search of the Michigan laws on trespassing I see that the law is pretty much the same as it is here in Indiana. I don't know about a game warden having such authority as I never found that printed but I suspect it is similar to Indiana's in that the only time a game warden has such authority is when they have reason to believe game laws are being broken. Retrieving a dog or downed game on private property hasn't anything to do with violating a game law but rather civil law for trespassing. Below is the citing from the Michigan rules book. Landowner here in Indiana may also grant vebal permission but if you are stopped by a game warden he will probably go to the land owner to find out especially if a violation has been committed.


Recreational Trespass
Trespassing is illegal and seriously erodes support for recreational
hunting. Permission is required from the landowner or leaseholder
before you may hunt on any farm lands or connected woodlots or on
any posted private land. Landowners may grant verbal permission.
Hunters are required to produce their hunting license to landowners
upon request.
If you wound an animal or bird and it runs or flies onto private
property, you have no legal right to pursue it without permission
of the landowner. Without permission of the landowner, you are
trespassing and subject to prosecution

They have no right telling the Dnr no in mi. The deer belong to the government . If the landowner tells you no you just call the Dnr and wait. You are about the permission .

[bodetis]

the guys saying they havnt or never would shoot a dog are a minority compared to the ones that would or have or even knows someone who did. old timers never thought twice to cull a dog that way or even pepper one that ran trash. not saying i agree or would, or have, but your not gona convince me that most on this site have never shot a dog at one time or another, or know someone that has just saying!!!!

[chapkosbeagles]

Sound like u Louisiana boys got the right idea but these deer hunters up in my area are way to serious they sit daylight to dark day after day I just respect there hardwork

Ever sat in a tree stand for 12 hours I have hert like hell when I got up. I like running dogs alot more

[warddog]

In my search of the Michigan laws on trespassing I see that the law is pretty much the same as it is here in Indiana. I don't know about a game warden having such authority as I never found that printed but I suspect it is similar to Indiana's in that the only time a game warden has such authority is when they have reason to believe game laws are being broken. Retrieving a dog or downed game on private property hasn't anything to do with violating a game law but rather civil law for trespassing. Below is the citing from the Michigan rules book. Landowner here in Indiana may also grant vebal permission but if you are stopped by a game warden he will probably go to the land owner to find out especially if a violation has been committed.


Recreational Trespass
Trespassing is illegal and seriously erodes support for recreational
hunting. Permission is required from the landowner or leaseholder
before you may hunt on any farm lands or connected woodlots or on
any posted private land. Landowners may grant verbal permission.
Hunters are required to produce their hunting license to landowners
upon request.
If you wound an animal or bird and it runs or flies onto private
property, you have no legal right to pursue it without permission
of the landowner. Without permission of the landowner, you are
trespassing and subject to prosecution

They have no right telling the Dnr no in mi. The deer belong to the government . If the landowner tells you no you just call the Dnr and wait. You are about the permission .

My wife works and lives in Michigan so with there being a possibility of me doing some running up there some weekend on a visit I have been looking over the game laws up there. I have found nowhere in the laws I have looked at that states a CO has the legal authority to mandate that a private landowner allow them access upon their property to retrieve anothers dogs or downed game, MINUS the suspicion of any violation of law. I'm not saying it isn't so but can someone tell me where this is stated as laws do not appear out of thin air they must be written for all to see. In most of the law I have dealt with they are vague to a point and what I have found judges to say is that they are written to be interpreted in a manner "that any reasonable person reading them would conclude." I consider myself a reasonable person and in the statement that I copied and pasted from the Michigan game regulation book about recreational trespass the culprit without legal right to pursue game on private property is YOU. This is NOT elaborated on, to exempt a CO or anyone else and therefore it has been my experiance that YOU means whoever YOU are that is reading the law, period. I believe a CO does have the authority to do so when they have probable cause such as a suspicion of a violation of law but MINUS that they are YOU just as you are you and I am you when we read it. In my reasonble interpretation of the language I am NOT going onto anyone's property to fetch my dog until I gain permission and if i can't then I would call the CO for assistence which I have done here in Indiana to which they came out and the CO was told NO you cannot take this guy back with you nor can you go onto my property to get his coon dog off the tree in my woods.

[chapkosbeagles]

They can tell u no in michigan if I say u cant track ur game .than u cant call the dnr good luck

I have it happen ever year on a farm I hunt. I started practiceing the neck shot to fold them up on the spot.

Works good

[chapkosbeagles]

Are co are as dirty as they come they right tickets and leave u to pay or fight it . I got a ticket for no hunters orange and was wearing a orange vest. Got another for walki
ng accross the railroad tracks when the land owner owns 40 acers on each side of the tracks,and I got permission.
I could tell severial storys from several people. Facts are in our area we have dirty co

Michigan has the right to retrieve I can fetch my dog on anyones property with or without permission

Wardog u sound like one of our co

[steve w]

Wardog here is how it's worded, Michigan


A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog. I got that from this sight, http://realestate.findlaw.com/land-use- ... ssing.html
This is in the compiled laws somewhere and was in the hunting guide at one time. I'll keep trying to find it.It's like you said kind of vague and ambiguous, I interpret it like this, leave your gun, get your dog, get out ASAP. As far as the wounded animal, no way can you go get it. call the DNR if you like but I doubt they would help.

[dog]

so in other words you can unless the land owner has already told you not to or you can the first time but if he tells you to not to again your out of luck

[steve w]

You got it dog. Repeate offenders not tolerated. But you still can't shoot them.

[warddog]

Wardog here is how it's worded, Michigan


A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog. I got that from this sight, http://realestate.findlaw.com/land-use- ... ssing.html
This is in the compiled laws somewhere and was in the hunting guide at one time. I'll keep trying to find it.It's like you said kind of vague and ambiguous, I interpret it like this, leave your gun, get your dog, get out ASAP. As far as the wounded animal, no way can you go get it. call the DNR if you like but I doubt they would help.

Thank you Steve. Yes, this law is as most of the laws I have dealt with are and go back to the statement I made about how a "reasonable person would conclude." Almost every time I have been in front of an administrative law judge in my working days, whioch were many, they were folks that had NO personal experiance of the actual subject matter they were judging. In other words in this case they would not have been hunters and or hunting dog owners that may have a tendency to lean more to the side of those of us that do. They have as their guide only the words within the written law to apply in their verdict. It would be my interpretation of the LAW you posted to mean that if one ventures onto POSTED (written) property or onto it after being told NO at any point including the land owner yelling it at you as you start to enter it then YOU are subject to trespassing. It is that way here in Indiana and as I have stated many try to rest their case on "the dog can't read" but they are your property and your responsibility to control and you can read. It was impossible to control my coon dogs and when the private property owners became more and more against entering their property, I quit.

Chapko, I don't think you have any dirtier CO's than in any other part of the country BUT what you do have is folks enforcing the law and if they have busted you then evidently YOU are one of them that I have spoken about that thought they knew the law BUT didn't. It also sounds to me that with all the stories you can tell you must know many others in that same boat. YES, I may sound like one of your CO's as I spent a 30 year career in enforcing federal law and many hours preparing for cases in which those laws were violated. I can also tell you that the old saying of "ignorance is no excuse" is TRUE. I've also been involved personally with many of these property and trespass issues when I coon hunted and then after I decided that the only way to hunt peacefully was to either own or lease property of my own to do it on. I was like so many others back when I didn't own or lease property as I just couldn't understand why people would NOT allow hunting as I never destroyed a single thing BUT not everyone is that way. Now, I like to try to understand how the word of the law applies to what I do. if you have been cited for a violation of law you have due process and can go to court and plead your case BUT I will venture to say that if a CO has taken an enforcement action YOU will probably not succeed.

[chapkosbeagles]

Yup how did I know. cause ur one of the ones I beat in court. dirty ticket righter
I can profile u a mile away even over the net ( power tripper an alway right)
See the problum is all u cops forgot ur a publick servant not bullies. Give u a little power it goes to ur head
I used to beat the snot out of bullies all thew school in my wilder days an steel there girlfriend
Did u not understand I had permission it is no different than walking accross the road when the landowner owns both sides.
I was also wearing hunters orange but was in a pop up blind hw claimed he could not see my orange when infact each window had a 4 by 4 orange squre above it

Dirty cops write dirty tickets

The farmer gave the neighbor kid permission to hunt and co gave him a ticket for not having writin permission dirty cop

Just saying I new as soon as u started talking

[warddog]

U know as much about me as U evidently do the law. Permission that has been granted to hunt private property on both sides of RR tracks does not give permission to trespass onto those tracks OR the easement along BOTH sides of the tracks. A roadway is a totally different situation as it is public property BUT a RR is privately owned by the RR company just as the private property where permission was obtained to hunt on so therefore needs permission as well. Nope, never was a bully and certainly not a cop. Never lost a girlfriend to someone who thought they were billy bad azz either. Don't know it all and never professed to, as I have certainly paid the price for my ignorance over the years. I learn new things all the time and even on these boards when it comes from folks I soon know are like E.F. Hutton. then there are others that have a hard time understanding that ALL folks are entitled to an opinion but when it is written in law it no longer is opinion but fact. Why is it that when folks can't hang with knowledge of the facts they resort to the ole azz whipping grade school stuff. I'll merely state, that never impressed me much at any time in my life and it doesn't now and if they come to get azz they better be bringing some azz!

[chapkosbeagles]

I dident mean u I ment our old bullie co s. Thing is now days u would get shot tased and go to jail for life. I like my fedom more than that

See problum with the law is it is all about the dollar ( greeed)

If he has to truspass to catch me isnt that entrapment what makes them above the law
I guess more comman sence needs to be involved. Do u think a jury would convickt a person for walking a beagle over a set of tracks that he has permission to run dogs on both sides not hurting a sole.

Now I walk stright accross an stright back never walking down the tracks just acvross like u would drive accross the road at a railway crossing

Look it up this smart guy beat that ticket but when u live in the woods ur bound to have bump in with co s I am justt saying a dirty ticket writer is a bad exsample of a good cop

This was a few years back an I dont think he is the local guy any more but most are still all about tickets it is what pays the bank urs to mr gov job all that money ill sell ya a good hound lol lol

I guess law degrees dont teach comman sence

[steve w]

Chapko wardogs right about the tracks, railroad owns them and a CO can ticket you for that, if you beat it I would like to hear more on how.I realize in your case it may seems petty but sometimes the railroad makes a big stink and the law don't have much choice. A CO run me off tracks one time,no ticket though. Funny thing was I did not have permission off the tracks any more than on but as long as I was not on those tracks she did not care. The orange and the pop up I am not sure on, I know I sat in one before and the only orange was on me.I've seen others do the same .Guess I better look into that one.Marking it with orange would not be a bad idea though.
Wardog I think the dog retrieval law wording is meant to allow for the fact that a dog is going to cross a property lines and rather than needing to ask first to go get it just do it. But is is not meant to use as an excuse to constantly or repeatedly have a dog go were the owner does not have permission. I personally hunt very little private ground because of that reason, seems we always end up were we don't belong so unless I can feel certain the game and the dogs will stay in the area I won't go there but we are fortunate with a lot of state land in Michigan.