cold nose

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:10 am

Pete, I know what you're saying about nose. Can't get enough of it. As I've said, I'll tolerate a bit of extra mouth and some mistakes if the dog gets a lot done and doesn't foul up the rest of the pack. I don't know where the point is that a slightly faulty dog becomes too faulty to tolerate- I think we'd all draw the line in different places. I'm going through this right now with a young hound who has lots of talent but I'm becoming disappointed with her use of her mouth. I ran 4 hounds yesterday- my really good 5 year old bitch, this 2 year old bitch, and two 14 month old pups. It was about 40 degrees with rain and drizzle in thick fog. There was about 25% bare ground and varying amounts of rotten snow and ice that was melting fast. This is the toughest conditions I've encountered and the running was poor. The dogs could not circle a hare without constant breakdowns but never lost the line either, though some of the breakdowns were so long that you could almost consider it a loss. Each time, the older bitch would eventually recover the loss and they'd pick away at the track til they got on bare ground where they could push it a ways. At this point the two pups would join in and get a little bit done. The two year old often thought she had the line, but was wrong too often to suit me. She'd pull the pack off the check by claiming the line when in fact it was the old line from an earlier circle or a backtrack. On good conditions, this bitch looks really good and I thought she'd looked much better lately but on the really tough days she really gets herself in trouble. If not for the older bitch, who has become my yardstick to measure others by, her fault would not have been so easily seen. Time after time, the younger one would would claim the line only to see the older bitch leave her, return to the check and work the check out to a run again. Interestingly, I've never caught this younger bitch cold trailing even though she has outstanding nose. Generally, the hound that will open on a previously run track will cold trail as well, but I have not yet seen her do this. I'll continue to work her and hope for improvement, but I'm not one to become kennel blind and make excuses for a faulty hound. Young dogs here get plenty of chance to grow, learn and become permanent members of my pack but few make the cut. Pete, I wish I could tell you that I breed a high percentage of hounds with lots of nose and few faults, but I can't. If I ever have more than 3 or 4 hounds at one time who I can call completely reliable it is something to celebrate. I guess one pup out of every 2 or 3 litters makes it. Right now I have 4 but they range in age from 5 to 12. One of these was from similar breeding but not from my kennel. I've bred a lot of litters during that span. There have been some pups that I'd sold that I would like to have back but I can't keep them all. When I do have a really good hound of course it's not for sale. If there is someone out there who only breeds excellent hounds I've not met him and I know he doesn't exist despite some claims. Either he's got something to sell or he has no idea what excellence is. When I became an AKC judge some 10 years ago, I swore that I had studied and understood the rule book and take the job seriously. I would not have done that if I had not believed in it. I apply the standard to the dogs I see in trials just as I do with my own hounds. It works. I don't expect everyone, especially those who don't keep many hounds and seldom breed, to be as critical as I am, but if they enter a dog in a licensed trial they are going to be compared to the best and according to the rule book. Whether anyone else chooses to agree with the rule book is not my concern. There are some laws on the books that I don't agree with but I expect the judge in the courtroom to apply the law fairly and honestly. Same goes with the AKC rules governing merit vs faulty actions, except I agree with them entirely because they have proven to be true over long experience with hounds. Obviously, everyone here is passionate about beagles or we wouldn't be arguing this topic. I became a better beagler when I set the bar as high as it goes and then attempted to at least get part way up there. Otherwise we're simply striving for mediocrity. Excuses come easy, improvement comes much harder. I can't think of anything harder than breeding excellent beagles.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:42 am

Joe could you be more specific.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:19 pm

Joe says the hound can't be measured by the number of shooting chances the hunter gets. Mine can and many others. We believe that form comes after fuction. The way a dog tracks is secondary to accomplishment. Accomplishment is first. If we needed a standard in a book the Beagle would have never been invented. The breed was here first. How did that happen? They had no book to go by. They had no Joes telling them how to do it. The breed was here a long time before your standard Joe. Field trials are good but are still a show. I don't care how the dog looks or works. I am a hunter and care only about how good the dog brings the rabbit to the gun. If your standard can produce that dog, then that is a good deal. If it can't produce the best dog then we can do it ourselves. The best dogs I have had were not created by the standard as a tool. it was the rabbit that created the dogs with ability. It just so happens that Beagle is a good dog for hunting rabbits. If someone came along with a better breed to run rabbits, I would switch to that breed. You like to go by the book because you are that type of person. More power to you and I wish you the best. The book was written after the breed was already created. How could someone breed beagles without the AKC standard to go by??????????? They must have been smarter than you Joe.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:49 pm

Beagles and houndsmen were here long before the standard was written, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a method of running a rabbit that would produce and account for game at a higher success rate. The standard was written as the result of years in the field watching houndwork and determining the method and technique of trailing game that would be most productive for the hunter. The better a hound can produce and account for his game means the better the chance is for a kill.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:23 pm

Wells Wood, I couldn't have said any better than that. You said that the standard was written as the result of years in the field watching hound work. The good hounds created the standard by watching them. The standard did not create the hound. In this regard it sounds as if the standard needed the hound and not the other way around. Any person with average intelligence can see a hound working when the rabbit comes by. First the rabbit and then the hound. If you see this 9 or 10 times, you get a pretty good understanding of what your hound is doing. Just watch and you will see if he is making mistakes etc. If they only bring a few of the rabbits they track to the gun, you know the dog is not too good. It is really pretty simple. I don't need a book to tell me if a hound can run a rabbit. In your last sentence you say that the better a hound can produce and account for his game, the better the chance for a kill. I agree 100%. I will take it to the next level and reverse that and say just the opposite is more correct. The better the chance is for a kill. the better a hound can produce and account for his game. I do agree with most of the standard and understand it is meant to promote the breed. It is not complete and doesn't have the final authority in saying who is a rabbit dog. Only the rabbit can do that.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

Bob: Yes it is pretty simple. The hound who accomplishes the most is the best hound. Your a pretty smart guy; just keep listening to me and you'll be fine.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:55 pm

Joe says "Bob: Yes it is pretty simple. The hound who accomplishes the most is the best hound. Your a pretty smart guy; just keep listening to me and you'll be fine."

NYH says "I think I'm gonna puke!"

Talk about an inflated ego!!!

NYH

Post by **Bev** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:27 pm

Don't puke, NYH. Joe's post was dripping with sarcasm, lol! Bob will understand.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:57 pm

Bev,
So was mine!!

NYH

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:46 pm

bob huffman wrote:Gee Tony you sound like a real expert. When it gets down to about 0 degrees, come see me and bring your best and we will see how good you know dog work. Talk is cheap.

Bob, I was not sure at first but now I am convinced that you are as ignorant as the day is long.

Talk is not cheap, your dogs are.

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:54 pm

Well folks, I really don't know much about this rabbit dog stuff but I've been following them off and on for about 40 years. Now I've never had me no high falutin field champion but I have had some that would bring a rabbit to the gun. We've been out the past few days and ran a few bunnies. On Christmas day we went with frost on the ground sun shinning and starting to thaw. One of my younger males was mouthing here and there but the other 4 could not even open. Boy that stupid little cold trailing babble mouth idiot would not give up. He boo hooed here then there but kept busy. He finally babbled into a downed pine tree along with one of our females and boom out jumped that rabbit and the race was on. Those dogs ran that rabbit 2 solid hours and within 20 yards of me 4 times but I couldn't get a shot. The 5th time around the rabbit made the mistake of going between my cousin and I only to be put in the game bag. Today we went with the same pack of dogs. Of course my cold nosed idiot babbler started popping off here and there without the others being able to chime in. Hell, I think he even popped off on a squirrel track one time or maybe two. But this young male babbled around on 4 different tracks that the others couldn't even smell for the longest time and we bagged them 4 rabbits. Now folks these places we hunted are old grown up clear cuts that the mines have cleared off. It is so thick that you have very little time to see a rabbit let alone get a shot. This is some rough stuff for the dogs let alone a hunter but our cold trackin, babble mouthed idiot sure did put the meat in the pot. I call that ACCOUNTING for your game, with the gun not the pencil. I think I might keep this FAULTY, babbling, cold nosed, idiot. NUFF SAID!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:07 pm

yea sir i like them dogs that hit the ground barking, they'l get one sooner or later

Post by **Bev** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:41 pm

It's not a requirement to register on this board to participate, but if a guest refuses to sign his/her name or own the post, don't feel put out if I decide to delete them at my whim.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:48 pm

Folks don't post their name on a post because they are usually out of ideas. They tend to be lazy or their brain don't work good enough to come up with ideas and facts to prove their argument. Most would not be good dog trainers.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:39 am

Bob: Speaking of brains not working good enough to come up with ideas and facts; Still waiting for your thoughts on the standard.

The American Beagler Forum

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