A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
S.R.Patch wrote:I wish everyone could understand that a hound "can and should" work a cold scent while keeping it's mouth shut. The problem comes from interfereing with the hunt of the other hounds, who may be working closer to the start or jump.
If you hunt only one hound, he can sing the tale of a week old trail and it will matter not, but when others hounds are working as a group, they should not advertise it, untill it's a sure thing ...Patch
Patch, did you even read what I typed above? What's with the riddles that you're typing in, like singing tales and mattering not? Sounds good, but doens't match up with with real world experiences, at least in this neck of the woods.
In the example the track was 1 minute old. If the dog waited until the other dogs could smell it, it might take them until the following week, and oftentimes I don't have that long to kill the rabbit.
Well said Chris. One question I have is, if these dogs that don't open until the game is up are smarter then a dog that does, then why worry about a cold nose dog interfering with the hunt. If the warmer nosed dogs are so much smarter then why would they leave a track that they are smelling whether opening or not and repeatedly come in to check a dog working a track they don't have the equipment to work? IMO if that warm nosed dog is smart it will go find (hunt) a track it can run. The cold nosed dog is hunting but the warm nosed dog is either not hunting and waiting to "ME-TOO" or not smart enough to know that it can't run that track and should move on to find (hunt) one it can run. I understand that dogs are pack animals but in the wild if they don't account for "their" game they don't eat, except for the bigger, stronger ones who do nothing until the kill is made and then steal it.
Chris,
I did not address my post to you, but it is fact, it is real world and it is the most efficient manner.
Sorry, if you don't like my rimes.
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still...oops...lol
If the pack has any brains at all, a dog working a cold trail and opening on it will not interfere with them working. They should know by how the dog sounds how hot the track is. The same way you should know. You guys saying you can't tell when your dog is on a hot or cold track by the sound of his voice?
Bring your hot nosed won't run a rabbitt unless it's sitting on their nose dogs up here in the snow and ice. You'll stand around all day freezing your but off saying "damb I wish my dogs would work a cold line to the rabbit"
I can see both sides of this. If i were hunting in an area that had alot of hare like some of the places you read stories about in the magazines then i would probably not want a cold trail dog that would open. On the other hand i do not have that fortune and the areas we hunt are rough secluded and the hare are scarce. When you find a track that is jumpable you better have a dog that will announce it so that the others can join in and lend a hand. A group of dogs working together on a tough track will have a better chance of accomplishing the goal, jumping the hare.
We hunt the southern most mountains of the hares range and i can assure you that what you read in the articles pertaining to numbers, side jumps,strays, and seeing hares sitting does not apply. In 20 years of hunting hares i have never jumped one or seen it sitting. The dogs that had the ability to cold trail were always the ones that produced the hare. When you hunt an area like this the other hounds will learn to hark to the cold trailer to help get the job done.
Some of you are confusing "cold nose" with "cold trailing". A cold nose dog need not open to work a line and will jump the game as quickly as the one who may open on the same track. Just because a dog doesn't give tongue does not mean he can't lift scent, he just doesn't open til it's jumped. The ideal combination is a cold nosed hound who only opens on hot scent. This way he does not interfere with the other hounds who should be working independently but in the same general area.
Chris when you see the hare get up and go it's not a cold trail. The rabbit is up and moveing. IN that scenario the hound that is able to get the scent isn't cold trailing he just has a more powerful nose then his packmates as is proven by the conditions. BUT, that is not a cold trail nor is that cold trailing. You saw the rabbit get up and go.
Now I am wondering if we are speaking of cold trailing at all or if we are speaking of hounds who are picking along at a faint scent warming their rabbit up. That happens quite a bit in the cold and poor scenting conditions but is not cold trailing. Cold trailing occurs when the rabbit is sitting tight and the hounds are working old scent laid before he is disturbed from his form. IN all of these cases that have been described the trail has been straight which leads me to beleive the hounds are picking along at a faint trail and not actually cold trailing. IN that case we would expect the hounds to open on the faint scent left by a rabbit recently disturbed from his form by our passing or by the hounds during their searching. The hounds have found their rabbit and now must run him. If that is the case I would wonder about the nose of the hounds who do not open on the line. There are of course times when a rabbit is merely seen but has not left a workable line. This is a rare event though that can happen at any time of year and so if one hound is capable of working the line of a rabbit that has been disturbed from his form I would have to question the nose of the other hounds who cannot work the line. I've seen many times when the faint trail of an unseen rabbit who has left his form is detected by the hounds, they may only indicate they have discovered scent by flagging for a short distance before opening or they may open right off upon encountering the scent but must pick along until they warm their rabbit up till they can really pursue him. We should expect them to open in such an instance when they have a workable line but that definantly is not cold trailing.
If the dog is working a moveable line it should open. I want to know when they have found a line that they feel will lead to a jump. That is the dog's job. If it doesn't open on a workable line, to me it is a fault. Now, I'll give you all the fact that the dog has to have the brains to know to a certain degree of accuracy whether that line is going to lead to a jump or not. And cold trailing will not interfere with the rest of the pack, I don't understand why you guys keep saying that.
Last edited by kjohns on Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Now I am wondering if we are speaking of cold trailing at all or if we are speaking of hounds who are picking along at a faint scent warming their rabbit up. That happens quite a bit in the cold and poor scenting conditions but is not cold trailing. Cold trailing occurs when the rabbit is sitting tight and the hounds are working old scent laid before he is disturbed from his form. IN all of these cases that have been described the trail has been straight which leads me to beleive the hounds are picking along at a faint trail and not actually cold trailing. IN that case we would expect the hounds to open on the faint scent left by a rabbit recently disturbed from his form by our passing or by the hounds during their searching. The hounds have found their rabbit and now must run him. If that is the case I would wonder about the nose of the hounds who do not open on the line. There are of course times when a rabbit is merely seen but has not left a workable line. This is a rare event though that can happen at any time of year and so if one hound is capable of working the line of a rabbit that has been disturbed from his form I would have to question the nose of the other hounds who cannot work the line. I've seen many times when the faint trail of an unseen rabbit who has left his form is detected by the hounds, they may only indicate they have discovered scent by flagging for a short distance before opening or they may open right off upon encountering the scent but must pick along until they warm their rabbit up till they can really pursue him. We should expect them to open in such an instance when they have a workable line but that definantly is not cold trailing.
Back to the original post... If the man is a breeder, to use a shock collar to stop the problem, he is just "masking" the problem which will probably show up in future breedings. Have seen the same thing happen only it concerned timidness in a bitch.
This like beating a dead horse. Go back and reread the posts. I know what a cold trail hound is I have owned a good one and would love to find another. It is pretty obvious by the replies we have the hunters on one side of the fence and the trialers on the other. The hunters who run in the adverse conditions want a cold trail hound becuase they know that it is this type of hound that all the others will rely on when things get tough to jump a hare. Trialers say big nose but should not open because that is what the rule book tells you to keep and breed. I really didn't understand how anyone could not know what a cold trail dog is. I have been rabbit hunting basically all my like and i thought this was the norm and have just taken it for granted but after seeing alot of the posts on here i can see there really are alot of beaglers out there that just do not have a clue. I can understand if you are from the south you probably shouldn't have seen a good cold trail dog but it is a necessity for bad cold snow if you want to continually get up and run hare.
I can't take this anymore so i'm leaving it up to you Chris,Pete,kJohns to help these guys figure out the difference.
Really how could you describe the beauty, vastness and wonder of the
ocean to someone who was born totally blind and never had the gift of sight ?
Kjohns, the reason I say that cold trailing interferes with the rest of the pack is due to the fact that the rest of the hounds are obligated to honor the dog giving tongue. If I cast 4 hounds into a piece of woods, I want all of them to work independently. Four hounds will cover four times as much territory than one so jumps occur much sooner than if they all hunt as a group. Once game is jumped and the hound opens on the line, I expect all hounds to hark in to the hound who opened. At this point they need to work as a unit. This is the most efficient use of the pack and results in the most action possible. Otherwise, there is little need for more than one hound. Hunting independently can be a double-edged sword though. A hound must be independant enough to do his own work, yet must recognize that he is part of the pack and needs to cooperate with his packmates. Again I want to stress that we're talking the ideal here- what we're striving for. Most of us however will only have a handful of hounds in our lifetimes that approach this ideal. All hounds are faulty to a degree; at least at times, so don't think that I'm attempting to be critical of someone's hounds. I'm pretty critical of my own. In my kennel of 12 hounds at the moment, I have one "brag dog", two old champions who still get the job done, some young ones who show promise, and a couple who are lucky to still be eating on a daily basis. The 2 old champions are above reproach when it comes to proper use of mouth, but the "brag dog" will get demerited at times for cold trailing. Despite this, she's become a better hound than 95% of what's out there and I'll overlook the occasional bark out of place because of her record for putting game in the bag. When she is bred this spring though, you can bet she'll be bred to a stud who has a completely clean mouth.
There in lies the difference. I don't feel the rest of the pack is obligated to hark in until the rabbit is up and running. I made the following post back on page 2.
"I have one what I would consider a good cold trailer in the pack I hunt with. The dog will open when he smells a track he can move. It may take him 20 minutes or so to work it to where the rabbit is sitting and jump it. Where I'm lucky, I guess, is the rest of the pack will ignore him until he gets it up and running, if they jump a rabbit or find a line in the mean time, he'll come in to them. After we shoot that rabbit he'll go back and work his original line again. When he gets it up and moving the rest of the pack will be right there. Most of the time he will eventually get mr bunny out of his hold up and running."
Like I said before the rest of the pack and I are well aware of what he is doing by his voice. And we are well aware when he has jumped the rabbit and has it moving.
The only problems I have is the fact that if you take hot nosed dogs out on a day when the rabbits aren't moving, your going to be real bored. I know this from experience too! Also if I can't see the dog and they are working a cold line not opening, I might call them to move on and miss out on what would have been a good chase.
I live in the snowbelt of Northeast Ohio. 2 weekends ago I went out saturday morning after a fresh snow with my male (who will not coldtrail) and a pup. The pup was opening and working a track, but the male wouldn't hark in. I went to check it out and couldn't even see a track. Now she wasn't sreaming it and I could tell it wasn't too hot by her voice, but to not even be able to see the track kinda upset me. I was just about to let her know and out popped the rabbit. The race was on. This could have been pure luck, but I hope not.
...Patch
