Breaking from running deer

[Phillip Smith]

Joe, I have one more question. I know someone can't be so against something unless they have first hand experince and know for a fact what their talking about.
How many dogs have you personally ruined and what methods did you use to ruin them?
I understand fully how and why shock collars work and how to use them. I think when you've trained, retrained as many dogs as I have with the use of the E-collar then I'm in a postition to say they work.
Shock collars are only as good as the man using them-no better no worse! But if I had ruined as many dogs as you undoubtably must have with the shock collar then I guess I would be dead set against them also.
Joe I'm going to give you one example of how I took a shy, couldn't be caught dog and made a bold friendly dog out of it.
A friend of mine had a Feist that could not be caught, was gun shy and would leave the tree and would not bark when she treed. He gave me this dog and I live trapped her and brought her home. I put her up for a week and then put her on a long rope (she had the dummy collar on all this time with my taking it of and on every day) I got a couple packs of hot dogs and would call her to me, off course she would not come. I would pull her toward me and bump her with the shock collar. she would just crawl to me. After a week of this she would wag her tail and jump on the fence and bark when she saw me coming. She got to love the training sessions, very seldom did I have to bump her. Finally I got brave enough to turn her loose. She would not come so I bumped her, she belined to me just wagging her tail. that was the last time I had to use the shock collar on her. She was easy to train after that on squirrels and with in a month I sold her to a guy in Georiga for a $1000.00 (I also broke her to the gun during this time (not with the aid of the collar). I carried my friend hunting with her and he could not beleive it was the same dog. This is only one example and is one reason I fill so strongly about shock collars. As I've stated before I like to take dogs that have been ruined and turn them around and make good useable dogs out of them and with out the use of the collar I could not do most of it. Some maybe but not most.
Joe I respect your opinion and the way you stick to the things you beleive in, but do not agree with you in the least about shock collars. They're not for everyone but for sure they are the best training AID made.

[Joe West]

Beagle boy: I beleive breeding hounds who are easily trained to not run off game is the ansewr and if succesful you would end up with a higher percentage of naturally straight hounds.

Phillip: Tractability is the key to hounds who are easily trained and managed. If they lack tractability you will no doubt have a hard time training them and they will not give a witt what you say but will be content to ignore you.

[Chris]

Joe, I have one more question. I know someone can't be so against something unless they have first hand experince and know for a fact what their talking about.
How many dogs have you personally ruined and what methods did you use to ruin them?

Joe, I think you missed some of Phillip's post.



Phillip, like you, I have had wonderful experiences training with shock collars. I also agree with Joe in regards to tractibility. There are some dogs that a shock collar will ruin, because of a complete lack of tractibility and/or intelligence. I don't want a stubborn/dumb dog and get rid of them before I get to the point of ruining them.

If a dog doesn't want to please the guy who's feeding it then there's a problem. On the same token, tractible dogs respond great to shock collar training. We're all trying to get to the same end goal; it's just that responsible shock collar use will get you there much faster and easier.

[Joe West]

Thanks chris I did miss Phillips last post.

Phillip: Have you ever heard of Pavlov (spelling?) ?
His work gives an excellent explanation of why your shy hound responded as it did.


I haven't ruined any hounds with the shock collar. Nor have I ruined any with the shakeing method. Now let me ask you. If you see the way a hound reacts to something and his reaction is a negative one that you know can be detrimental to him would you have to go so far as to ruin him before you stopped to know it was bad for him?

You keep telling me you know exactly how a shock collar works and I keep asking you to define it; as of yet you have not done so. I can explain it in great detail and that is why I don't use them or recommend them. IN fact I have done so in the past. It's quite a lengthy explanation though and requires a great understanding of the hounds. All I keep getting from the collar crowd is it works, it works, okay I agree it will break a large number of hounds from running off game but how does it work and what are it's effects and what are the possible consequenses of it's use? I'd like to find just one person who is so all fired up certain that the collar is a modern wonder to be able to explain exactly what is going on.

[Phillip Smith]

Joe maybe I can't explain it in words on the computer. Again how many dogs have you used a shock collar on? What are your personal experinces in using a shock collar. I base my comments on hands on experince. not hear say or what someone told me. How many shock collars have you owned and how many dog have you used it on? To be baseing you comments on how bad shock collars are. Joe I would doubt you could ruin a dog by shaking it.

[Chris]

I'd like to find just one person who is so all fired up certain that the collar is a modern wonder to be able to explain exactly what is going on.

1) Dog is trained via. traditional methods to know exactly (there is no ambiguity) what I expect when a certain command is issued.
2) I strap on the collar and continue training, in actual hunting conditions.
3) Dog eventually makes a bad choice in not performing as he knows he's expected and experiences an unpleasant shock.
4) Dog comes to one of two realizations.

• 1 - he realizes that my arms are a lot longer than he initially thought.
  2 - he has no clue as to what the deal is, but doesn't like his new-found conscience that 'bites' him when he knowingly makes a bad choice.

Either way, everyone wins.
Suggesting that the shock is so foreign (unnatural) to a dog that it could ruin them isn't realistic. The only possible loser would be a dog that is so emotionally messed up as to not be able to handle the new sensation. I submit those wimpy, easily confused type dogs are a lost cause and you've lost nothing in burying them.

[Big Dog]

I will start by saying first of all that I am Pro Shock Collar. I can't get real technical with you about how it works or why it works but here is the bottom line. I had 6 young dogs that ran a deer once or twice on me. I bought a set of shock collars and put them on the dogs. I caught the dogs red handed on a deer. I lit their behind up between once and three times dependent on which dog I am talking about(some dogs figured this out after one shocking some dogs took up to three times being shocked to quit deer). Now they don't run deer anymore. ( I call that results) I check them every chance I get. I checked them again this morning. I saw two deer get up from their beds up ahead of us. Walked all of the dogs that way without changing the way that I hunt them. (I talk to my dogs "hunt him up, look for him") Not one dog even wagged a tail or made an attempt to go after the two deer that I saw. Had a deer run right by me last week with the dogs standing their, not one dog tried to even sight chase it. In short the collars work, but like many things it is not idiot proof.

Big Dog

[New York Hillbilly]

I started by going back and reading as many of these posts as I could handle without cracking up. It seems the big question Joe has is HOW e- collars work. Seems like a no brainer to me! Whats the big mystery? Through a tried and true principal of negative reinforcement the hound learns that it gets a very unpleasant feeling (shock) when he does the wrong thing (runs deer). Now the feed em a weenie routine is the same thing in reverse. That is giving a positive reiforcement for performing a desired task (Pavlov..dog drools when he hears the bell ring). The nice thing about e-collars is that when used properly the hound relates the bad feeling he gets to the deer that he is running. Methods like beating and shaking leave the hound with no question of who is the big, bad mean one. I personally prefer my hounds to see me as a safe, loving, fun to be around Alpha male of the pack and not the GRIM REAPER. I like to have them come running back to "the great understanding one" when that nasty old shocky thing starts to bite them. I never want my hounds to fear me if I can help it. I do note want them to come to me belly crawling or worse yet come back only close enough to watch me as they cower in the bushes. Think about it would ou rather work for someone you like or fear? In the case of running deer I make them think the deer are the bad guys. I take my hounds out back of the house and let them sniff around where the deer just were and see if they are interested. If they show interest I tickle them ever so lightly. If they open I let them start to take the line and then pop them good. This always stops them for me and we move on. The next thing I do is get the where they can see the deer and we walk right at them. When we get close to the deer they (the deer) always take off running. If the hounds sight chase I do nothing until they hit the trail and start opnening and running. At that point I set them ablaze with the collar and show no mercy, this while I start walking the other direction towards the house or truck. I look over my shoulder as the hounds come running back to me, if the hounds look back in the direction of the deer I whack them good again and continue walking the other way. As I walk away I call them in the baby talk way I do and whistle like I always do. The hounds only know what ever is out there is kicking their arse and good ole dad is leaving us behind. I then get them on a rabbit as quick as I can so they have a nice safe run on the RIGHT thing. We make enough deer trips that they get to know deer are painful and not fun. I have never ruined a hound with my collars and have used them for years without problems. I think they are an absolute necessity for me and I like to think they have prevented hounds for getting killed crossing roads or being shot at while running deer. And as far as a hound being DEER PROOF......bologna!!! Unless the hound tells me himself that he will never do it I figure a hound that won't run a deer is just one who has not yet! I will never be so smug as to guarantee a hound will or will not do anything. I never had deer run for my first 20 some odd years of running beagles. But when I bought one little bitch from ....well lets not say where...LOL...she got the whole kennel doing it. I can laugh now but wanted to kill everyone of those hounds at the time. With some common sense, time afield, good luck and the E-collar they were all born again. I have not had a deer run in three years...knock on wood....but never will I say never again! I VOTE YES ON E-COLLARS. Like having insurance you hope you never need it....but when you do you are awful glad you have it.
Peace,
NYH

[Phillip Smith]

New York Hillbilly, well writen. One point that you brought up is how friendly dogs are that are trained with the E-collar. Joe I sad trained not abused so don't try and put words on here that I didn't say. I'm still waiting on Joes reply about how many shock collars he's owned and how many dogs he's tried to train or use the E-collar on. I too have never ruined a dog using a collar. I have set a couple back somewhat but the way I figured, if I ruined them it wouldn't be anything lost. But they turned around and made good dogs.

[Hunt6]

How do ecollars work you ask??
Same way you - we all leared not to touch a hot stove.Ain't no mystery here and no need to delve any deeper.Jeeezzzee.

I think we can all agree no matter the method used.Common Sense or the lack of can make a mess if not used with either one.Also just because some have never tried or dislike a certain method does not make that method bad.To each their own and I'm fine with that...
Hunt6

[dosgris]

i know a number of people who are dead set against e-collars and when you talk to them, to a man they have been witness to e-collar abuse in the worst way. e-collars can be abused and when it happens any decent person feels for the dog in question. as has been stated here, e-collars should NEVER be used in anger, and they should not be used to punish a dog for a behavior that he doesn't know or understand. but as a tool, they are great, they allow "you" to be right next to your dog from nearly a mile away. you can give an immediate correction, but the dog should know that what he is doing is wrong, then when he gets the correction he knows what it is for. in this manner i agree with joe that at least the initial encounter with deer scent should be non e-collar or at least a set up.
it is simple behavior therapy, presenting an aversive stimuli.

[Big Dog]

I think just the opposite. As Barney Fife would say"NIP It In the Bud" I want a collar on my dog the first time he comes into contact with deer scent and if he takes it I want to let him know right away that I don't like it. I have cut off many a dog as Joe recommends and shook them whipped them and a little bit of everything, everyone of those dogs would still run a deer until the day they died. So far with the shock collar I haven't had that problem. As Hunt6 says to each his own, but I know what I am going to use.

Big Dog

[dosgris]

any knowledge i have comes from retrievers, so i am probably wrong here about this. what i have been told is that the dog is supposed to be taught first what the correction is for, then use the collar for the correction. that the collar is not used to teach the dog, rather it is used to reinforce what has already been taught. it seems to make sense as an aversive stimuli that as soon as the dog smells deer or breaks on deer or whatever you call it, starts running deer, that you would present the aversive stimuli.
i know the collar works really well on my lab, when i want her to tighten up her act, just a couple of light nicks will do the trick for some time. all i have to do is pick up the controller and she will obey any command, e.g., going in her kennel, (she is really quite spoiled), or heeling or whatever.
i agree with y'all about dogs being too soft if they can be ruined by a buzz or two,,, but i have heard of it happening. fortunately for me, my lab has overcome my mistakes in this regard.

[bowhunter59]

joe west r u sure ur not retick in disquise lol!must be a cousin or something to come against everybody else and not answer the questions brought to u please wake up and smell the roses !but either way enjoy ur dogs and let it res !so folks just never learn!

[Joe West]

Phillip: One question at a time. If you at least try to answer my question I'll answer yours fully. Hint: I still own a shock collar. Hounds CAN be ruined by shaking if the one doing the shakeing goes whacky and shakes them too hard or much. But, shakeing is the method beagles use on their own pups so they know exactly what it means.


Chris: Your speaking of a "bite " that will take a hound off a hot line with no command issued and in some cases keep them from running that line for life from a single little "bite". Obviously there is something more going on then what you suggest.

Big Dog: I never said the collar didn't work. It works for a large number of hounds. You have4 proof that it broke some of your pups with a single shock. It can do the same thing for running rabbits to some hounds. How it does it is where the danger lies.

New York Hillbilly: And they say I'm contrary! New York and Hillbilly in the same name is as contrary as they get The negative reinforcement doesn't take into consideration te hound who is broke with a single shock such as Big dogs pups. The fact that you can break a hound from deer with no command given is a further indication that something is wrong. The shakeing method is the same method beagles use on their own pups and just like any kid who gets a spanking they know what it's all about. Haveing a good relationship with your hounds is essential if the shakeing method is to work. So you think with you constantly and intentionally putting your hounds on to deer they don't connect them with you in any way, well maybe and maybe not I'd have to see it to know for sure but one thing is certain and that is hounds are not stupid, and they are reading your body language vary clearly. The only hound who is deer proof is the one who has lived his entire life and has never ran one. Any other hound could take a deer, if the conditions are right at any time. Keeping a deer runner in your kennel is the best way to make deer runners of all of your hounds as you well know.

dosgris: I've never seen anyone overly abuse the e-collar, that is just lghting the hound up over and over again. But I know it happens and that is as bad or worse then going over board with any correction method. Notice my use of the word correction and not punishement.

bowhunter59: One question at a time I've asked the same question a couple of times and am just know getting some half hearted attempts at answers. Some aren't even attempting an answer. Like you. You haven't given an answer.