Trashproof?

Boomerx · Post by **Boomerx** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:44 pm

One thing I'd like to add to this thread; I remember opening a well known beagle magazine some years ago and seeing a full page stud ad for a hound I'd run with many times and had been previously owned by a friend of mine. Among other things, he was described as "Naturally Trashproof". Trouble was, I was the guy that "naturally trashproofed" him for weeks on end with my trusty Tri-tronics shock collar. He was one of the worst (or maybe best) hounds I'd ever seen for enjoying a deer chase. I finally got him broke from running them and he was sold to a fellow in the USA who then figured he had a naturally deerproof hound and advertised him as such. I pity the beaglers who bred for to him expecting to get deer proof pups.

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:49 pm

Ralllllllf OHHH Ralllllf, hello, is anyone home? If you would go back up and read my last post I made it quite clear what my bloodlines are. That and nothing else. It was also made quite clear from another poster that this wasn't a deer running bloodline. You also evidently didn't read that it was man made just as we have been discussing. It goes to show that lines that are not trashy can become trashy if put into the right situation. I'm sorry but I had to laugh at your post of "If you have 14 inch dogs and you want to change your family to 16 inch dogs would you simply breed to a 16 inch dog. I wouldn't. I would breed to a dog that was 18 inches and the pups woulkd show an average over time and in the end you would have 16 inch hounds if you selected for it." Rallf, what selection would you make if NONE came out even 14 inches? How many lifetimes would it take to select for this trait to show up 100% of the time. It ain't that easy and if it were everybody would have the perfect dog and they ALL would be Naturally trash free as I know no one who wants to chase a trash burner.

Mirror, mirror on the wall make me a dog 16 inches tall,
Make him run rabbits while leaving the deer be,
and mirror while your at it just go ahead make him Natrually Trash free!

Now it appears that you like to let your mouth run away with your brain and then call everyone else silly, not as smart as the dogs or knowing nothing about breeding. I'm out of this correspondance and when you send that Naturally trash proof litter to Swamper to raise in his NATURAL running environment I want some of that action betting that they will never make the trashproof grade.
As I said I'm outta this one but Swamper keep us informed when you get a litter to put to the test.

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:17 pm

BoomerX ole tri tronics has made several of them trashproof. Thank god for them.

I cant say for certain that you could make a whole line trashproof or not. I dont think it could be done in a lifetime at least not for a run to catch hard hitting hounds. Ive seen known trash runners bred and throw pups that would not run anything but a rabbit. Ive seen non trashy hounds bred and produce pups that would run anything and everything. That is a trait that would be very hard to hone in on as they are bred to run scent and it is up to us to show them the scent we want them to run. I guess I just take it for granted that I will be breaking mine. Ive got one down here know that is 4 yrs old and has never ran anything off. To me Id rather she had that way Id know for sure she was broke...lol

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:13 pm

wardog I was asking swamper what line he has. I guess I could ask you but as you said you already told us. About your family of 14 inch dogs. if you put in one cross of 16 inches you would not get much. Might increase them 1/2 inch over time at the most. I am not talking about beagles as there are no 14 inch fa,ilies and they throw too much variation in hieght. Some breeds have it bred tight such a field springers and certain other breeds. Was using as an example that when you want to introduce a new trait that is govorned by the number of genes present you should breed to a dog that is typey for the trait. A better example is one of the coonhound studs I used on some bitches. Thsi dog would stay treed for 2 days and I have witnessed it. He was a little tree happy also and quick to locate. When a lot of his pups started, they would run a track and rear up and run on theur back legs trying to tree. As soon as they smelled scent they would rear up. A few nights running and they would get over this but were still very determined to tree. When I bred him to females that were weak tree dogs the pups would come out just right. These females needed a stud that had TOO MUCH of the treeing trait to produce good pups. Breeding them to a good tree dog was not enough. There are times when a dog has too much of a good trait but they can be used in the manner stated. That is the art of breeding and if we always were able to wait until we had 2 perfect parents we would not breed many dogs would we? Not sure why you would poke fun at breeding to an 18 inch dog to increase the height of a 14 inch family to 16. Have you ever seen the children of a 7 foot man. Most are tall but not 7 foot because families usually produce towards the average height of the family. It is not the individual that creates the pups but the family. Unless a parent is very tightly bred you can count on the pups showing a mosaic of the family they are from. That is why a lot of litters are so disappointing even thought they are from good dogs. They were not from a good family.

Farwest · Post by **Farwest** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:47 am

wardog the point I was trying to make is that , just because they don't run deer doesn't mean the don't have hunt. A few posts were making it sound like they liked the fact they they ran deer when they first started.
I don't know what luck other people have had with the otterbrook line but i have had 6 now that would not chase deer. Had I ran them with trashy hounds or tried to start them in places where there were more deer than rabbits, things might have been different. Beagles want to run something, if you make them search , at an early age, for an hour for a rabbit they will chase what ever they find. I think a tash proof line only goes as far as the handlers. If you can train them to trail snakes then I am sure you can train them to chase deer but who would want to do that? To me a hound that would leave a rabbit chase for a deer is trashy. They need to be culled not shocked!

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:02 am

Here where I live in a lot of places you are more likely to jump deer than rabbits.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:30 am

Farwest wrote: Beagles want to run something, if you make them search , at an early age, for an hour for a rabbit they will chase what ever they find. I think a tash proof line only goes as far as the handlers. If you can train them to trail snakes then I am sure you can train them to chase deer but who would want to do that? To me a hound that would leave a rabbit chase for a deer is trashy. They need to be culled not shocked!

Good post Farwest, I agree.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:37 am

My offer will always be on the table. Brace dogs/LP dogs/spo dogs/ coon dogs /foxhounds.........Don't matter to me. If they'll quit deer and run their intended game because it is "bred" into them, then I'll admit I was wrong but until then, I'll laugh everytime this comes up.

I still can't understand that you've been breeding dogs for so long and you continue to argu this but I haven't seen you put your money where your mouth is. If this is possible, why do you still have to cull dogs and why haven't you took me up on this offer?

I know!!!!!!!

Ralph, not that is matters in this argument but..........

I have several different lines at my house. I'm trying to find the best crosses for what I like and I'll continue from there. Deer running is the least of my worries. If I had one that I couldn't break and continually ran deer, it would be gone but so far, I haven't had one yet.

1 linebred Kalagha male
1 littleman/buzzsaw linebred female
1 pup out of those two

1 Diamond II bred male
2 grade males (1 is my best dog)

1 Heavy in Playboy (8 crosses I believe in 5 gen and she'll never be bred)
1 Blake bred female/blackcreek
1 STubby/hare bred stuff from NY (This one won't be bred either)

Let me ask you this.

If you had a line that had never saw a deer for 40 years, would you think they would run a deer? Not a single deer for 40 years. Nothing but rabbits.

SouthernBeagles · Post by **SouthernBeagles** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:10 am

When I bred him to females that were weak tree dogs the pups would come out just right. These females needed a stud that had TOO MUCH of the treeing trait to produce good pups. Breeding them to a good tree dog was not enough. There are times when a dog has too much of a good trait but they can be used in the manner stated. That is the art of breeding and if we always were able to wait until we had 2 perfect parents we would not breed many dogs would we?

Now this I can agree with.
I still believe that environment can and does overcome genetics. Like wardog said, you run a better chance of jumping a deer than rabbits in my area too. A young dogs desire to run track when rabbits are hard to come by sometimes gets the best of them.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:38 am

I have always called a good dog "trash resistant" rother than "trash proof"

About your family of 14 inch dogs. if you put in one cross of 16 inches you would not get much. Might increase them 1/2 inch over time at the most

That is absolutly not true, never has been, never will be. When you breed a big dog to a little dog all you will get are big pups and little pups. Breed to the size you want, inorder to get the size you want. When you want good tree dogs, breed good tree dogs. Breeding a strong one to a weak one will produce a litter split between strong treers and weak treers. It would be pure luck to get pups that were in the middle.

tom

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:26 am

LOL

I was going to say the same thing but........I figured ol Ralph was the expert here.

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:03 am

blunder that is not true. I understand that you get big and small but you also get average when it comes to size or treeing instinct. You will get all of the above. Also I am not talking about the just the first litter on the size thing. Over time and many generations. I have seen it too many times in horses dogs and other species such as catlle etc. If you are talking about Mendels experiment, he used a species of plant that had height determined by simple recessive or dominat gene and yes, they are inherited either tall or short. In mammals height is more determined by several genes that are not inherited in a simple Mendel fashion. Many traits are caused by the number of genes present for that trait. Shyness would be one of them. A dog is not either shy or not shy but is variouys degrees of shyness depending on how many genes he has for the trait. Treeing is the same way and so is height. Dr Leon Whitney showed that long legs were recessive to short legs which may be true but there are other factors involved. I have watched for this over the years and it never held true in litters except in a general way. Yes if you breed a weenie dog to a lab all the pups will have mostly short legs in the FIRST cross. All would still be carrying the recessive for longer legs and later generations would show the trait but not to the extreme the lab shows it. Most would be a litte shorter over time. It is not inherited in simple menedel fashion such as peas or eye color in humans etc. The amount of treeing instinct is caused by more than one or 2 genes and depends on how many genes the dog got for the trait. Also other traits or genes are involved such as frustration threshold and some others. Hang in there!

SouthernBeagles · Post by **SouthernBeagles** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:19 am

Blunder?
Are you trying to say that if you breed strengths to weaknesses to correct a fault, you will end up accomplishing nothing? I disagree based on my own experiences.

Alswamper,

Think about the ModeanX Hammer crosses.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:20 am

blunder that is not true

Gee, guess I've been doing it wrong all these years, no wonder I have only had 30 titled dogs.

Are you trying to say that if you breed strengths to weaknesses to correct a fault, you will end up accomplishing nothing? I disagree based on my own experiences.

No,,,, I'm saying half your pups will get the strength you are trying for, the other half will get the fault you are trying to get rid of. (simplified version)
Point being, breed to what you are trying to get, not to an extreem

Some of what Ralph is saying about personality trates has marett,,,,,, but,,,,, Mendelin is a LAW not a theory. Like all laws it is clearly defined.

tom

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:27 am

Swamper all the bloodlines you have are out of one strain and that is SPO and Wildcliffe Boogie. There are mant other families out there you have not seen. East Coast trimmer thru Mt Zion Pete and various ones that go back to the original Yellow creeks that don't come thru Boogie. Have you ever had a UKC dog> I live in Missourri and we have lots of Amish around here and they love Beagles. A lot of their dogs are deer proof because a lot of them don't believe in electricity and they don't have cars or 4 wheelers to chase down deer runners. Over time deer runners have been culled in a lot of their stock. I just bought a female from Ivan Troyer for 150 bucks and sold her after working her for 500 to a freind. She wouldn't run a deer if you told her it laid golden eggs. The friend just bred her to one of my males and loves her. She is UKC as are a lot of the Amish dogs. There are many other types of hunting Beagles out there that you haven't seen and the SPO dogs will not cut it up here where I live. They can't handle the tought conditions we have for scent in the winter and a lot of them die on the vine as the track gets colder and they don't push hard enough to keep contact. Also a loty of them have squatty bodies and can't handle the deep snow as well as some others I have seen. I have had Stubby, Iron mike, Casey, and several others blood of Spo dogs and couldn't make it work for winter up here. Most were too slow along with the other problems. As for your 40 year question and no deer, NO I would not expect a dog to be deer proof if the family hadn't been severely tested for it. If there wre no deer you couldn't test for it and I know where you are going with this. That is why genetics are so important.

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Trashproof?

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