What still constitutes a bloodline

[DoubleEagle]

The point I tried to make from the beginning was: if the traits are not present in the sire, dam,it doesnt really matter whats 3, 4, 5 generations back. Are the desired traits present NOW. To many breed based on the assumption that if Dingus is in the pedigree 10 times producing 31% of the genes, the traits must be there as well.

I think genetics are relatively misunderstood which comes out in these posts, but fortunately some have the education to steer the truck back on the road!

Mybeagles

So let me ask you a question.....

Laneline,

What are the faults your working to get out of this line? How do you get a fault out of a line that is 31% of one dog?

Mybeagles

If the faults are there doesn't that mean the traits are there? A fault is still a trait... an unfavorable trait but still a trait. Not trying to in your Wheaties. Just wondering where you're going with this.

Mike McCollough

[NorWester1]

The point I tried to make from the beginning was: if the traits are not present in the sire, dam,it doesnt really matter whats 3, 4, 5 generations back. Are the desired traits present NOW. To many breed based on the assumption that if Dingus is in the pedigree 10 times producing 31% of the genes, the traits must be there as well.

The pedigree then provides a "WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN, IF THE TRAITS WERE BROUGHT FORWARD" wishful thinking. If all the desired traits were brought forward from Ole Dingus to present you might have something "IF" you didnt lock in numerous bad traits through all the tight breeding. Thats a real big IF in my book.

We have several adds for dogs forsale that dont posess good qualities but are advertised as "WORTH IT JUST FOR BREEDING BECAUSE OF PEDIGREE". I hope we all see that as a falsity.

I think genetics are relatively misunderstood which comes out in these posts, but fortunately some have the education to steer the truck back on the road!

Mybeagles

Good post Mybeagles.

To many breed based on the assumption that if Dingus is in the pedigree 10 times producing 31% of the genes, the traits must be there as well.

The pedigree then provides a "WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN, IF THE TRAITS WERE BROUGHT FORWARD" wishful thinking

Exactly, this is the point I was working towards! If Ozzie doesn't share a good amount of the traits and characteristics of Dingus then it's obvious they were not brought forward. At that point the number stats and having Dingus' name on a piece of paper 5 generations ago, means absolutely nothing. Like I wrote previously it becomes nothing more than interesting trivia.

Now this may not be the case with Ozzie as Laneline writes that Ozzie does indeed carry some of the same traits and characteristics. I haven't a clue, never seen Ozzie run and certainly not Dingus, so their names don't mean much to me. What does mean something though are the traits that Laneline, and Bev wrote about.....THAT's what peaks my interest, not the pedigree.

Mybeagles, as to your concern about locking in the faults thru linebreeding or inbreeding, that's one of the perks with using those techniques in a breeding program. If done properly you can go a long way to eliminating faults thru inbreeding and linebreeding. Faults in a line that you might only see come out by breeding closely can now be culled. What I'm getting at is that breeding in this manner isn't just to lock in the good traits......it's to remove the bad ones as well

[Larry G]

I think knowing the federation or association is more important than bloodline.
Since we were discussing Gay beagles a couple of days ago, has anyone ever traced a pedigree of a Gay bred dog. Frank Reese bred to a FC Wilson Timmy II bitch, Split Rail Betty, a sister to Dingus McCrae, Show Champion Bedlam Basil, Little Ireland's Binky, and bred a bitch to traditional Brace FC Sacajawea Steady Eddie, in the ten years that I knew him. What is the common traits in those dogs?
He bred Gay Baker to a LPH bred bitch he produced a LPH FC, B&K's Rock
He bred Gay Baker to Gay Cindy, Cindy by Wilson's Timmy II and produced a Deep South SPO FC, Glenn's Gay Demon.
He Bred Gay Baker to Split Rail Betty, Brace Trial breeding and produced Gay Rocky. Rocky was one of the beagles that show up repeatedly in the Bold Stroke line.

Hey Roy that brings back some memories. I got back into beagles in the late 60's. Bought some from JW Kidd of Huntersville that were Steady Eddies, bred back to his FC Pal O Mine Bob. I never knew Frank, sadly... I would have loved to have talked to him. JW and Bill Ferguson of Sharon SC both could talk beagles all day... of course you find a lot of people who can talk it, these 2 gents could back it up in the field which is what it's all about.

[mtnwaykennel]

There have been some GREAT lines in this topic.

Now fella's who believe that it means nothing to have a pedigree.... or even look beyond the mother and father..... I think it may pay you to look around the world.

We choose the PROVEN producing lines in every aspect of life. Bull's..... Cows.... They all take the PROVEN lines... track many of them back 100 years... often more.,.... this stuff is nothing new.

Hitler had his master plan on breeding the perfect human.... even slave masters back in the dark ages had the same beliefs... they too proven lines of people who had large healthy, muscular children and reproduced the cross.

We all think we are on the cutting edge when realy all we are doing is following set rules that sheep and goat herder's were doing when jesus was born.

To say that a pedigree has nothing to do with it says that no genetics pass down from one to another to another.

You say breed only GOOD dog to GOOD dog. What if ... and I mean what if.... You have 6 pups ... four goes to hunters and two goes as pets. Does the two who never had the chance to hunt not have the same genetic make up as the other four? I believe they do. I am not saying breed to house dogs... I am saying that always remember that half a hounds ability is in it's training.. practice... and in it's handling... hence forth ... their owners. We all are going to do what we want with this situation.... but I beg you ... before you breed female x to male y... if female x was one of a few out of a line that made good hounds... maybe... reconsider this.

I think part of the over population is people breeding here and there ... and I am guilty myself. I have made a cross and not end up with a single pup a year later from it... but I promise you if I cull them that heavy... that cross does not happen again... nor does a simmilar one.

Bill Woods .... Just tryin to learn this breeding thing with yall....

[RiverBottom]

Here is a good article written many years ago by Al Lynn:

[chapkosbeagles]

now guys a lot of genetic traits are carried every other generation dont forget about that

[Laneline]

Laneline,

What are the faults your working to get out of this line? How do you get a fault out of a line that is 31% of one dog? Im sure Dingus has a few faults and with this much of his genes those faults should be pretty obvious by now. How many outcrosses do you have to make with dogs strong in that fault do you have to make to remove it? Im thinking of the 60%, 10%, 10%, 10%, 10% analogy you gave. Im guessing any fault would be locked in real tight.

Mybeagles

The culling process and “weeding out of faults” is exactly what the Hill’s have been doing for several generations of breeding before they came up with Ozzie. That work has already been done. Ozzie is the dog that I am using to contribute, strengthen and “tighten” my gene pool with the traits and characteristics that I want in my hounds. You asked how do you get rid of those negative traits? You only make that mistake {cross} once. When you see that cross produced that fault, you get rid of the dog and forget about that cross and never make it again. In the “old days” they would plant it in the backyard, kind of like a flower. But I will say, rip up the dogs papers and give it away as a pet. It’s kind of like a fire, a fire needs fuel to burn. You don’t fuel the fire and it will eventually go out. If you think you have a dog with the potential to produce faults don’t use it. If you feel you must “because you have to start somewhere” don’t breed it to anything that will compliment their fault. Bombard the gene pool with genes that will drown it out. This takes an extreme line bred dog that has dominating genes that someone else has already taken years to cull and weed out the faults. If you were to take a gallon of blue paint and pour it in a barrel and then add a gallon of red paint you are going to end up with a color that resembles neither color. Now bombard that barrel with 30 more gallons of blue paint. You would never be able to recognize that any red paint was in the barrel because it lost its influence even though it is in there. Ozzie’s only fault is that he is getting old, but we haven’t found a way to cure that yet. What I was attempting to explain is how the Hill’s and other breeders that line breed to preserve a line, do what they do and the methods of doing it. Also there is another step {which is another subject of it’s own} which includes line fusing. I learned about this when reading about breeding and genetics in horses, cattle, greyhound racing and game chickens {fighting roosters}. Line fusing is when two extremely line bred lines that are unrelated are bred together. There is a process involved here that is “different”. Also, when you have two very strong line bred lines that are tightly line bred with the same dogs but the outcrosses that were used over the years on each of these lines are different. Myself, I have been working for years with the Yellow Creek & Dingus lines. But for example; The Hill’s primarily had Dingus blood as their “base” line. Their outcross was Gay Baker blood. Larry Perry had Dingus with the outcross being Indian Hill Major. When you cross these two lines you are introducing the Gay Baker to the Indian Hills but you are reinforcing and strengthening the Dingus genes within the dog. The gene pool is still narrow and Dingus is still the dominating factor within the gene pool. The fact that the Hill’s spent years of culling and Larry Perry spent years of culling makes the process a lot easier because the years of culling has weeded out the faults and all your introducing is positive traits from the outcrosses while reinforcing the Dingus genes. But the fact still remains that selective breeding and culling is the answer to most problems. As Bev said; “Jim and I get to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and hopefully be good stewards of the bloodline” this is a huge key. Branko has stated to many “breed to and buy the best you can afford” {the fruits of another’s labor}, LM Watson started with two Blue Caps and a Patch and created Yellow Creek. The best that was available in his day. {the fruits of another’s labor}. And both pretty good stewards. lolol There are a lot of good established lines out there.

Hey Listen, if I don’t respond to anybody, it’s not because I am being rude, I am not going to be on here for a few days. But I do enjoy the fellowship. I learn a lot from others. The more I know, the more I know that I don’t know.

Here are some good sites on the subject:

http://www.nrta.com/breedforfoundation/ ... .html#line

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~baywingdb/genetics.htm

http://www.springbrook.com/Yak/Breeding ... eding.html



.

[wvduece]

lots of good info here fellows if only my lil pea brain could comprehend it all ----riverbottom thats a good article too i would like to buy a couple dozen of those mining lights at that price that must be a old add jb

[S.R.Patch]

But of hunting hounds...

http://www.dogstuff.info/of_peas_and_pups.html

[Pine Mt Beagles]

THE GAY BRED HOUNDS
BRING BACK MEMORIES I NEVER MET FRANK' EITHER I HAVE SEVERAL LETTERS FROM HIM ,,I OWNED 2-PUPS FROM BAKER 3 OUT OF GAY TIME 2 OUT OF GAY TUCK BUT MY FAVORITE WAS THE- 2- I HAD OUT OF GAY BLAZE HE HAD A LOT OF" HARE" BREEDING IN HIM .EVERY HOUND MENTIONED ABOVE WAS DIFFERENT,SAME BREEDER,,,,AND MOST WERE OUT CROSSED AND I THINK IF I REMEMBER RIGHT DINGUS MACRAE IS ALSO AN OUT CROSSED HOUND SO IS INDIAN HILLS MAJER' I HAD A HALF MATE TO MAJER'.BOUTH' OF THEM WERE OUT OF NEW CITY CRYSTAL'' SAME AS NEW CITY CRUISER,SOME TIMES THE TRAITS YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR ARE THE ONES YOU DON'T SEE,IT MEANS YOUR BREEDING WAS SUSCESSFUL IN TAKING THEM OUT..JMO
PINE MT BEAGLES

[buffett]

now guys a lot of genetic traits are carried every other generation dont forget about that

[mybeagles]

Linelane, Bev,

I get the impression that Ozzie is a faultless dog with rock solid genetics that will certainly pass down when bred to similar bred females. Ive never seen the dog run but I assume from hearing your accounts that he dominated in the trials and show circle. Can we expect several more with his or greater ability in the near future. If not, why?

IMO this is an oversimplification of the breeding process. I believe Ozzie still has some faults that need to be removed in future crosses. Although he may be a great hound, Im sure there are some areas that can be improved and thats what I was getting at. Your post seem to suggest that all faults were removed. I have never seen a perfect beagle and if Ozzie was, there would be more talk about him. The reason I questioned the faults in the line, is not to smear the line, but rather to get an idea of what might be the real stubborn faults to remove from a line to exercise more causion in my breeding program. No, Im not interested in in anyones Wheaties. I dont start threads to do that.

There is an old argument, but in my mind it still holds true: If linebreeding/inbreeding was as effective as many of you lead on, then the linebred/inbred dogs would dominate competition and the truth is they dont. Extreme outcrosses from continually outcrossed lines continue to produce many of the Great dogs. There seems to be a balance between the two and if it tilted to one side I would argue extreme outcrosses have produced the greater number of superstars. This is what keeps me from being sold out to linebreeding. That being said, I have seen where solid linebred dogs that were outcrossed really produced well. Which leads to the next obvious question, look for a new thread.........

[Shady Grove Beagles]

This is for informational purposes only.For many years I've heard many people carry on about Dingus McRae.I am aware of some of the good dogs that were out of him.
Most all the people that write 100's and 100's of words about him never saw Dingus run and that's a fact.
Within the past year there was a thread on Better Beaglings Q & A board that contained comments in regards to Dingus by three very well respected gentlemen all now in their late 60's or early 70's who not only competed their hounds head to head against Dingus but also had the opportunity to judge him on numerous occasions.These three A.K.C. judges are Dick Doyle,Butch Keene and Joe Hanlon.You might find their comments enlightening but be advised ,they didn't appear to have found Dingus McRae the same quality of competitor that many of today's beaglers think he was.

[Bev]

Yes, Shady Grove, that may be true, but then I've had people tell me they wouldn't give a nickle for Billy Grimshaw, and those boys would be crossing themselves if they heard that. What a dog is in the long run is what he's capable of producing or reproducing, wouldn't we all agree on that? How many people here know that Jack Of All Trades was a strictly a medium speed hound (by many people's standards)? I would wager to say that Ozzie is probably a better overall dog than Dingus because of the 69% that reinforced Dingus' good traits (no quit, good line, good search) by adding conformation and foot.

Is he a perfect dog? Of course not. He doesn't like to handle. You have to cut him off and down him. He's an alpha male and doesn't like to kennel with just anyone. In the field? I honestly have no complaints, but what is acceptable to one can be considered fault to another.

A beagler owned Ozzie as a derby before I got him. He sold him to me because no matter how hard he ran him, he couldn't get front-end Little Pack speed out of him and that's what he was looking for. In his case, lack of desired foot was a fault. He wanted a 9-10 and Ozzie was a 7-8 as a young hound.

Ozzie opens on a line a minute or two before the rest of a pack. If you trial him in a timed situation like PP or LP where the rabbit must be produced in 3 minutes or whatever, he may draw a minus now and then. But, you can take it to the bank that he will have it up and running and the other dogs will chime in.

That said, he still managed to finish in 3 formats and 2 registries. His well-earned titles are LP Grand Rabbit Champion, LP Grand Bench Champion, PP Champion and Grand Bench, UKC Hunting Beagle Champion and Grand Champion in Show. He never set foot in a UKC trial until he was almost 8. He has been trialed from Michigan to Alabama, and all points in between. I will not name dogs because I can't say for a fact, but the likelihood is that many of the greats from the northeast were trialed and finished within a 100-mile circumference of home, competing against pretty much the same dogs every weekend. It doesn't diminish their accomplishments because those same dogs they ran against may have been the best ten dogs in the country, but I wonder how any of them would have stacked up to today's dogs had all things been equal. I have observed that old phenomenon where the longer a hound is gone the greater a legend he becomes.

Taking Ozzie out of field trials (where he has absolutely nothing else to prove), he's a trash-free, above average foot, line running dog, excellent hunter and check dog, runs on snow and dusty road, big booming mouth that always produces...and he retrieves. Pardon my vernacular, but what the h*ll else would ya want? LOL. Him to skin and quarter all the rabbits and then clean your gun?

I don't say these things to take credit for Ozzie. His breeding is credited to Kenneth and Nick Hill. Nick is the breeder on paper. His trophies and points were collected by several beaglers including myself who owned/handled him. The only thing I take credit for is knowing a good dog when I see one -- and we all think that about ourselves, so there ya go. For the record, his littermates and most of his immediate family are equally talented, and have been for a while. Doubting Thomases here need but to pick up some old Rabbit Hunters to see that despite being a bit low-key, the Hills Shake Rag Kennels have been serious contenders for a long time, and have never wavered from their style of dog.

This thread has gotten off-course as is often the case. It's not really about Ozzie's worthiness - or shouldn't have been. I threw him out there as an example to the original question "What still constitutes a bloodline." It didn't have to be Ozzie -- he's just got one of the tightest pedigrees I've seen, and he's a dog I've had much first-hand experience with. If any dog is 31% of a single bloodline after 5 generations, then I think it counts. Good or bad, it counts. Will Ozzie throw the traits he inherited? Aside from a cross or two that was made when he was in the south, that's yet to be seen. He's just now getting pups on the ground, and that's half the reason he's with Jim in Ohio. I'm not in a position to breed him, and his bloodline needs to continued with care. The other half is his much deserved retirement -- trips to the field and a bed by the fire -- something else I can't give him right now. Thanks, Jim.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

DINGUS
I HAVE NEVER SAID OLE DINGUS WAS A GREAT HOUND,BUT HE HAS PRODUCED SOME GOOD ONES AND IS IN A AWFUL LOT OF PED'S GOOD OR BAD ,,,BEV -THIS OZZIE HOUND MENTIONED"" I HAVE RUNNED WITH KENNETH HILL AND HIS SON'S ABOUT 7 OR 8 YEARS AGO DID THEY STILL OWN HIM THEN I WAS WONDERING IF I HAD SAW HIM..RUN
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES