misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Bev]

[REBEL]

Joe-i am with you partly-i think??but why need a separate hound to run in different terrains,climates or rabbits????I know trials differ and so do Judges and personal favorites,what they like and dislike,but a rabbit hound should be a rabbit hound no matter what and after a short acclimation to the climate it should continue to perform just as well one place as another and i think i have proven that by having hounds here from Florida and from Maine and also in the past sent hounds to the same places and each time the hounds has performed well-so why??and anyone else can jump on this one to.I know you can have a good rabbit hound at any speed but most like hounds that run with the type pack they enjoy,even a walky talk can follow a rabbit trail and in time you may shot a rabbit,just not my cup of tea.I enjoy running hounds and mine had better run me a good rabbit anywhere and anytime i feel like listening to them run and so far they have not let me down.

[New York Hillbilly]

Holy Moly,
Yoos Guys (Yankee talk remember? ) are really into it now! I have been busy at work and just got to read this stuff and am bowled over. I had to go put on my hip boots and it's not because of the four feet of snow in the yard. Hounds that are faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to catch snowshoe hares in a single bound. Maybe we can just send these hounds over to Iraq and have them whoop ole Sadam and bring us some world peace. Heck catchin and killin a big rat can't be near as tough as catching a hare or a swamper! I wish I could send mine along to help but they would just slow things down. After all I can honestly say that my hounds have never caught a hare unless it was slowed down a bit with a couple of pellets from an almost gottcha shot, or an unfortunate stray who got crossed up and ended up face to face with one of them. Don't get me wrong my hounds have never been accused of being slow or to careful but they have feet not wings. As a matter of fact go ahead and ask Rich Smoker about the two fellas from N.Y. who ran their hounds at a couple of his trials. He can fill you in on my buddies blue tic bitch, or my Candy who after shredding herself in multi flora rose running rabbits was still trying to crawl back in after the hunt was over causing one of the other trialers to look at her and ask "what the hell is wrong with her?" cause she won't stop! But as good as they are they seem to pale in comparison to what I'm reading about here. I'm waiting for someone to claim their hound can catch a Volkswagon rabbit for goodness sakes! Anyway it makes for interesting reading and I guess if you can't be high on your hounds who can be. Right?

Keep writing I'll keep reading,
And at times shoveling,
NYH........Peace

[thornie]

Hey this is great. I read it everyday. So here's what I did, being it was
cold I went out to the pen and got Mudpuddlin George out and brought
him in the house. I put him on my lap in front of the putter and read to
him about what everybody liked in a dog. When we had read all the post
he got all excited over New york Hillbillys post. You know how they get
when you come out to the pen to load up. So we went and got in the truck
drove down town, and he bought him one of those volkswagen rabbits. I
think he thought it would be better to drive one than chase it. Not bad for a beagle.

[snowshoehareguide]

ive owned two dogs in my lifetime that i describe as almost catching a hare. this is only in certain conditions . like say a tall dog and about a foot of real soft snow where the hare was sinking in a good 6 inches, they panic when dog gets too close . seen them squeal like they were wounded and seen them dive under the snow to get away, i hunted with a friends walker cross once that caught cottontails pretty regular. I question why anybody would breed dogs on purpose to run a hare that speed. two of the above dogs were 18-20 inches tall. the other was just a 15 inch beagle. he didnt make many losses . pretty much ran solid in almost any conditions. it goes with what joe says. a fast accurate hound. only one ive ever seen in 30 years of running beagles. i hunt a lot of cross breed dogs. i sure dont like them for running hare on bare ground or crust. they can push hare way too far. they are great anytime hare sinks in powder snow a little. when you hunt in soft snow 3-4 feet deep they are down to just right speed or even too slow. rebel im not doubting you when you say your dogs can catch a hare . if it wasnt for three dogs i mentioned above id be real skeptical. they showed me that such a thing might be possible. one thing ive learned is do not use words like always or never when describing dogs. people are real quick to judge all dogs by what their own do. also their is so much BS going around in dog world that i cant blame anyone for being skeptical. i hate to see anybody come down to hard on somebody for making what looks like a ridiculous statement. pretty soon every bodies afraid to say anything. better thing would be just ask them to prove it. dont judge other peoples dogs by what yours do. next few days im sure it will be 20 -30 below here. i have a couple dogs that might run pretty decent . i dont think they will catch any hare though. id be glad to show anybody that they can run. i also have a half dozen others i know cant. in 30 years only seen a few dogs run decent when its 20 below. ive had one guy call me a liar on message board for saying such a thing. i guess hes never seen a dog that could do it. anyways my point of this whole mess is is many years of hunting hounds on all types of game ive seen individual dogs do things i thought were impossible many times. i could give a dozen examples. reason i thought it was impossible was from my experience up to then. im still looking for some real cold nosed , cold trailing beagles, that are not boo hooing idiots. pete

[Guest]

rebel: It was Bev thnking you needed different hunds for different places and stuff not me. I beleive one good one can do it all.

[Alabama John]

Notice the folks that have the hardest time believing beagles can catch a lot of rabbits are from up NORTH. Why? You are running:

(1) Running in roses with thorns

(2) 20 below

(3) Snow

(4) Number of holes

I don't blame you for doubting, I doubt we could catch one in those conditions either.

Now, close your eyes and picture a 500 acre field with soybeans leaves forming a canopy 3-4 above the ground with clean moist dirt with just the bean stalks as an obstacle. Surrounding the field is a swamp that held water all winter and spring but now the water is down and its just moist mud with a few broadleaf plants coming up in it with puddles of water everywhere.

Dogs run rabbits limited only by their nose and their breeding, (not terrain) as some would only run medium in any conditions due to breeding. A run to catch dog WILL catch often.

Something to ponder that you never see discussed: With the visability in our terrain very, very, good, our dogs learn to not keep their noses down and eyes down also, but to look ahead while running to see their quarry and sight race to catch where possible. Is this taught or bred? Do they start using their nose again exactly where they lost sight of the rabbit by mentally marking its last seen location just as we do when we call the dogs to put them on one we've seen? To not do so would be a fault? If a dog went back to the point of loss of scent, would that be a fault?
I never like to hear WENT BACK or RETURNED in reference to my dogs. That indicates lack of forward motion to me.

Back to liking what works best in your terrain and conditions, Huh!

Come down Joe, you'll have a real good time, southern folks like to carry on, and make something humerous out of almost any situation, but they are always friendly and hospitable.

[MSBEAGLER]

Break out the waders, it has got deep, but with a friendly tone and thats good. Looks like I need to outcross to a grayhound (for speed) , bloodhound (for nose to go with speed), blackmouth cur (agressive to catch) and an AKC rulebook. Then I could have the perfect fast,run to catch beagle that everyone else has. or better still everyone could cross with everone's elses dogs and the perfect beagle would exist.
And I thought it got deep when 5 or 6 hunters got together on a hunt. Makes for good reading. Good discussion.

[Bev]

I stated - "Geography, game and climate will always dictate what sort of hound succeeds with the least amount of effort, and it's not the "one glorious standard of hound" that will do best under any circumstances - I don't think that exists yet." and "people don't go out of their way to find faulty hounds - they settle into what works best for them."

Somehow that got interpreted into:
"you need different hounds for different places"

Joe, different people from different areas want different hounds, period. Not everyone would be satisfied with the best hound in your kennel or mine. I also agree that a good hound can probably run a rabbit most anywhere (not everywhere) given the time to adjust - it's just that most folks hunt close to home and don't as a rule stay "out of town" long enough to allow for that adjustment. Their hunting pack consists of hounds that do best for their particular game and terrain while giving the owner the type of run he gets enjoyment out of, or his/her own preferred style of hunting.

Here's just a quick re-hash of the subject of nose alone. I've used a lot of bold here and there so everyone can see what I get from their posts:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NYH - "Oh well he wasn't perfect but neither is my cold nosed hound!! If you look to get rid of those cold nose hounds look to us fellas in Snow Country we like em. Or at least me and my buddies do! They are the ones that get things moving and once on hare gets going the rest get bumped and lay fresh tracks. You may have 2 or 3 at one time going. And we owe it to those cold trailing hounds."

(Joe called them faulty - well I guess Joe's ideal hound wouldn't have gotten a rabbit up that day)


Chris - "What would be astonishing is if these same hounds that you're describing could also consistently keep a rabbit going all throughout the winter up here. The vast majority (virtually all) of medium/hot nosed trial type dogs can't do it. A few individuals, yes, but I've never seen a 'family' that consistently could. The closest to that I've seen is with the Patch hounds that were bred for it. "

Redtick - "I would guess that if folks had to do alot of hunting on snow and ice, more folks would hunt cold trailers. Places like Northern Michigan, the only rabbits you could get would be to a dog that has a nose and the brains to use it. I hunt dogs that have the track up running here in Illinois. When it is bitter cold, my dogs are just jump dogs but truthfully, I don't hunt under those conditions......If I lived where the only trails that could be run were by beagles with a cold nose, that is the kind of beagles I would own. "

Tnbeagleman - "I like a tight mouth dog and the places I run doesnot require a great nose so most of my dogs only bark on a hot trail but my experience has been that the dogs from up north are what I am usally seeing that is called cold nose , this may just be a freak of nature or are they breed to pick up a scent better. "
(in response to Tnbeagleman)
NYH - "tnbeagleman,
I agree with you and you with I it seems. But as a fella that lives way up north I'm glad you said it and I did not. Fluke, nature or breeding it works up here and to me at least its no fault. "

snowshoehareguide - "the guys that are telling you what a fault cold trailing is are the same guys that are breeding dogs that cant run a hare most the time. occasionally under certain conditions they can run without a mistake. ive seen a lot of beagles . a lot more that had not enough nose than i have that had too much . joe said only time snow gives his dogs fits if its crust. ive seen dogs that would run on crust as good as any other time. "

TomMN - "Where I am from a cold nosed dog is a good thing. We have a different term for dogs that trail without producing any game. Babeling, standing on their head, whatever. A cold nosed dog that can move a track good and jump rabbits is worth it's weight in gold on those bad days and like Pete said, there are more bad days than good ones. If you don't have a dog like that you will go home empty handed a lot here in Minnesota."
"The biggest differences are due to where and when you do most of your hunting or running. Here in Minnesota you can't run cottontails most of the winter because they will not run in deep snow (they are like one of those hounds that only run good when conditions are perfect). I have several dogs that can run a hare in waist deep snow. It's not that hard to do except for the physical effort. Let it go 2 or 3 weeks with no fresh snow and temps well below 0 at night and very few hounds can keep a hare running very long. This is where the type of hounds Chris and Pete are looking for will stand out. "

Blackdirt Beagles - "Not trying to be rude, but I havent seen any dog or line of dogs that can always run, no matter what, end of story. I doubt if I saw yours I would have to change that statement. Just happens, be it humidity, air pressure, changing temp or whatever, sometimes you cant run no matter what dogs you have."

Alabama John "We just can't say what they would do in snow as they have never hunted in any since we stay home by the fire, build snow men, eat snow ice cream and take the days off until it melts. We never get the dogs out on the few days we get to see snow.
We do have dogs with nose enough to run and walk if necessary all day in cotton fields and most dogs that I have seen that come from up North cannot do that. They either hang up or start circling way out trying to find the scent. We may have what you are looking for, but do not know it. That may be true of all our Southern dogs. There are good dogs everywhere, sometimes it is the environment they are used to running in that they excell in, not just the nose."

TomMN - "I have had some of my best runs on fresh snow, that's when my old "cold trailer" can run with her head up. The toughest running here is on old snow and below zero temps. I think it is because of the climate is so dry here in the winter. When we have a cold snap up here your skin dries out so that your fingers crack and bleed. " (some of his best runs...)

- - - - - - - - - - -

Joe, these statements and others are what inspire me to say that folks will settle into hounds that work best for them. They are using their hounds in the most practical sense for their most common conditions. Some do need somewhat of a specialist, not just an 'all-around good dog'. Not understanding that fact is just closing ones eyes and ears. Some folks that guide hunts must have a hound to bring the rabbit to the gun consistently for the client - under the worst of conditions and don't give a flip how they do it - as long as they do it. Others like to run their pack, dissect the run, go home and log how long each hound was down, what the temperature and time of day was, which dog took the longest to empty out...

I still say fault is in the eye of the beholder and type of runs that provide the most sport are likewise.

[Chris]

Notice the folks that have the hardest time believing beagles can catch a lot of rabbits are from up NORTH. Why? You are running:

(1) Running in roses with thorns

(2) 20 below

(3) Snow

(4) Number of holes

I don't blame you for doubting, I doubt we could catch one in those conditions either.

John, I know that we're all from different areas and like different things, and have different conditions. I don't doubt you for a minute when you're talking about your area, and things that I truly know nothing about. I do know about hare, though; and I just brought it up because Rebel was referring to hare, and them not being hard to catch; and how his medium speed dogs can easily catch them -- 5 in a day, and how they can run in all possible conditions. That's all I was referring to, really. I really didn't mean to be so blunt (well, yes, actually I did ), but it's only because those comments were so far out of the realm of possibility that it concerned me -- not because I really care if a guy wants to tell fish stories, but at least they should be within the realm of possibility; especially for new folks reading that may take some of this stuff seriously. Any place that snowshoe hare thrive is thick by default. Sometimes you have to get down on one knee to see well enough into the thick mass of christmas trees and such, to even get a shot. I know that sometimes cottontails will head across an open areas, like fields -- I've seen this when I've hunted them. Hare, on the other hand, avoid open spaces like the plague; most times even avoiding small roads, if they don't really have to cross. I've got some pretty quick hounds, and I've only had one dog run down a hare from behind (not counting wounded), and luckily, I got that on film for the world to see. Other than that one time it just doesn't happen. On some of our very best runs, in the best scenting conditions, I've had 2 or 3 fast hounds hammer on a hare for 3 or 4 hours, and never check more than 3 or 4 seconds, at an amazing speed -- and even then they don't catch them -- unless they're sick, wounded or something. Occasionally a stray may get in the way, or the rabbit will turn into a dog that's not in the pack -- but even that doesn't happen more than 2 or 3 times in a season. I don't have the world's fastest dogs, but they're capable of really rolling when scent is good -- running head-up; just about as fast as I've seen a 15" Beagle go.

I've got a pretty open mind, but when someone's talking about something that I have a little insight on; I'd appreciate if it were kept somewhat real.

[deseartdog]

bev very well said, but remmber, you can lead a mule to water but you cant make him drink. i live in mo. now but i lived in oregon for years. when i lived there the guys use to say , you want a good dog get it from mo., ark, il. to a degree that is right but not as a rule. i have seen a dog in oregon that could bark on and trail arabbit &jump it that isaw 20 min. earlyer . brought the same dog here mo. dog didnt know a5min. old rabbit was even alive. believe me there is a big big difference . if you think adog is the same east or west north or south try it you all might change some of your thoughts ,. faults or what ever.

[Alabama John]

Chris, you understand the rabbits I was referring to us catching were Hillbillies, Woods and Canecutters of various ages.

I know nothing about Hares, never seen or ran one.

Truthfully since your dogs run fast to catch hares in rough stuff, I'm sure they would catch as many here as ours do once they got familiar with the terrain and especially if they got used to using their eyes. The sound of the pack running sure changes when running by sight and its obvious to everyone listening.

I never meant to infer that catching rabbits in the off season was strictly a Southern bred dog thing, some of my dogs are Yankee bred, just that its common for fast footed dogs to do so in our conditions and terrain. Mine are not the only ones that do this, I assure you. I have friends that catch more than we do. It's common here and I did not realize it was not common everywhere. That's been very frustrating on this thread as we come across exaggerating and we're not. On a hot summer morning, when its dusty bone dry and no scent at the higher elevations, there is a moisture fog 3-6 ft thick laying on the ground practically every morning in the low areas near the river swamps that hold scent like you Northern folks would have to see to believe.

Everything I've said is true and anyone that wants to come down and run for fun or to be proved to, is welcomed to do so. We'd love seeing different dogs from other places run and leaning back in our beach chairs in the shade discussing dog and running ground differences. It's great for pups to have hair in their mouths often. We'd all have fun and I guarantee you it would be pleasant with no arguing. Lots of kidding both ways is the rule. It's also permissable to go swimming, wade, wet a hook or set out a trot line since we run right next to the Tennessee River and its backwaters.

Interestingly, think about this, we are the ONLY hound folks that judge and worry about how our dogs get something accomplished. Coon dogs strike and tree and get points for both even if they ran backwards or as someone said turned flips between the two. Our dogs are to jump and bring the rabbit to the gun. Our disagreements are always on what happens between.

[New York Hillbilly]

Chris,
If you look up the page at my first post on this thread you will see we are in agreement. I did try to throw a little humor in to soften the blow. Any hare I have ever run only makes bigger circles when pushed to fast. Heck I've had them go bout clear out of the county if pushed to hard on hard pack snow. Thus the reason we run them with trackers on. And in the spring when the buck hares are out cruising for some luvin they bee line back to their home turf with hounds in tow before they even start to circle. And that could be a couple of miles away! I hate that!!! We seem to have the same experience when it comes to catching hares as it happens under only the extremest of situations as you can again see from my prior post. And, to Bev I must say that hounds I do believe get to be somewhat used to their type of running ground. But I also think a good hound is a good hound no matter where you run them if they follow their sniffers and have some smarts. My hounds were run primarily on cottontails up until a few years back and are close hunting, brushpile kickers under those conditions. The first couple hare hunts they looked at me funny like we were doing something wrong. Since when did dad want us to just go take off and run? They acted like I was trying to get them to run off game or something. But once I convinced them it was OK it was Katy bar the door. They now smoke anything we like to run with equal success and enthusiasm. I will add that while I am not a rich world traveler or a trial cicuit regular, my hounds have run and won or placed in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey as well as N.Y. In heat, snow, down pour rain or dry as a bone. Not bragging just trying to point out that good hounds are good hounds no matter where you run them. Again mine are not hare catchers but they sure do hunt. Feel free to ask Paul Webb in Ohio, Rich Smoker in Pennsylvania, Nate from BJK ran with me in Jersey 80 degrees and dry Saturday and 30 begrees and 4 inches new wet snow on Sunday. And as far as N.Y. goes, well you can come run with me anytime we can hook up. With my new job and the severe winter this year it has been a challenge to get to run at all let alone with friends from afar. But there is the off season and the promise of a better next season. As I said before I like good hounds and good hound people! And I seem to find both on this site, BS or not!
Keep it fun,
NYH

[Beagleman973]

Like they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I too am a hunter, not a trialer, but I like fast dogs. Or at least what I call fast, that too is in the eye of the beholder. With that said, a fault that drives me crazy is overrunning the line. To my way of thinking that is a fault, because the hound is pushing so hard that it's not paying attention to the track. If the hound is sounding and he's overran the track, to me he's not honest! To agree with Joe, I wouldn't count 6 feet or so, but I have seen a number of "so called" great dogs overrun a turn by 30 to 50 feet. Personally I don't want a hound like that.

My hound can beat your hound? On any given day a hound's performance will vary. Maybe he's tired, a little sick, or just like a pro athelete, just not in the "zone" that particular day! One run does not determine the best hound, consistency is what counts.

As to speed, you better believe terrain, weather conditions, etc make a difference. A good hound knows when he can burn the trail and when he has to slow down. A hound with a nose or speed is useless if it doesnt have the brains to use them!

Somone asked about what line of hounds to better understand what the person is talking about. I run Blue K Pudge hounds.....Pro is from this line. They hunt, have the speed I desire, etc.

Finally faults I can't live with.....off game, overrunning the line, pottering, no search ability, back tracking. Checks will occur, I don't care how good your hound is.....but if the hound is creating checks.....that's a fault.

Just my two cents!

[Joe West away frm home]

John: Nobody doubts a hounds ability to catch rabbits. Hare are not rabbits though and many have not seen a hound catch one of those. Me included, but hare doesn't make up a lot of my experiance running. Herd of it before though just haven't had the oppertunity to see it. Hare will run all day long in front of your hounds.