new beagler is confused

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

samlyn0001 wrote:What color do you consider this hound? Black and Tan or Black, Tan, and White???
All that are pictured in both posts are Black /Tan/Whites. A couple are heavily marked with ticking. It would not suprise me if the other had some ticking also (hound in top post.) Take a look at the Blk/Tn/Wh beagle in my post with the foxhounds and also both the foxhounds. They all have the same color genes. They are Bk/Tn/Wh and Ticked. The extent of the piebalding and amount of ticking differs from the ones in your pics, but that is all. If you saw each of the ones in my pics in person you would see some very small tan ticks in the white on thier legs, thus they are dominant for Ticking. It is the rare hound you see that is not dominant for ticking, in foxhounds or beagles.

Here are the color gene pairs for all of the pics,
(a-sa,a-sa)(B,?)(D,?)(E,?)(T,?)(s-p,s-p).
The Tn/Wh beagle that has her shoulder marked has one pair different,
(a-sa,a-sa)(B,?)(D,?)(e,e)(T,?)(s-p,s-p).
(She has the ee recessive pair that does not let the primary color (blanket) be exposed. Her black nose and brown eye color gives her away. It tells me if she had a blanket it would be Blk).

The amount of white (or degree of piebalding) and the amount of, or degree of ticking can vary from one tick to a million, it does not matter. The hound will still be dominant for ticking. It does not matter if a hound is 1/10th of one percent white or 99.9 percent white, if it is a beagle it is still a-sa (which indicates a saddle pattern breed) and s-p(which is piebald spotted). Dominants and recessives act much like on-off switches. If the switch is on the voltage is there. We just do not know how big a light etc, we can run from the circuit. (the amount or degree of voltage there) until we measure or try it and then we can grade it. Most color genes and marking pattern gens are autosomal, they are either on-or off. (Shade of yellow (tn,wh,lemon,red,etc.) and chocolate is influenced by what are called Rufus polygenes that act as plus or minus modifiers to determine the shade.)

Always remember that many genetic diseases are also autosomal. It gives uas a way to get rid of, identify etc, in our breeding programs. Other characteristics, whether it be, nose, shoulder layback etc can be tracked using the recessive/dominant and grading the amount, although they are polyenetic. It gives us a tool to use that adds some predictablity to our selection and breeding plans and it will change the way you think about prospective matings and the possible outcomes. (What if you graded the quality of a hounds running using a color scale. Each day you took him out you rated it some shade of red or whatever. At the end of the year you would have a pretty good idea of where your hound was on the running color scale. Could see the change and might help determine what you needed to breed to to build better.) Imagination, objective goals and knowledge. The keys to success in most endeavors.

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

The blk/tn pattern is differene set of genes than the saddle pattern. Saddle pattern (a-sa,a-sa) (it is a double recessive) example breeds, German Sheperds, Beagles, Most Foxhounds and Harriers, Bloodhounds, Airdale Terrier, Welsh Terrier, Border Terrier, Australian Terrier, and virtually all tri-colored breeds that I can think of,etc.

Blk/Tn breeds are double recessive (a-bt,a-bt) which is also recessive to saddle pattern. Black tan breed examples, Balck and Tan Coonhound, Rottweilers, Doberman's, Manchester Terriers, etc. The Blk/Tan breeds are often described as dogs black (or at least solid color) with tan POINTS. They are also born with the amount of tan they will have as adults. In saddle pattern breeds the amount of tan increases as the pup matures, and in some cases throughout thier life. There is a difference in these breeds.

Briarhoppers
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Post by Briarhoppers »

Lefgren-Lane,
I have enjoyed reading your posts - thanks for sharing. Is there anyway to predict the color % of an upcoming litter. I have the follow litter on the way and was just intereted in possible coat colors. And what chance is there that I could have blue tick?

-----Black, Tan, Bluetick (blanket back, reg. as blue not black tick)
-Black, White, Tan (open marked, black nose and dark eyes, few ticks)
-----Black, White, Tan (open marked, with dark eyes and black nose)
PUPS
-----Black, Tan, White (blanket back, black nose, dark eyes, few ticks)
-Black, Tan, White (saddle w/ tan hairs mixed in, black nose, dark eyes)
-----Black, Tan, White (saddle w/ black nose, dark eyes)

Thanks,
Pete

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samlyn0001
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Post by samlyn0001 »

Excellent information!!!! I have a hard time understanding the genetics. Some I can get, others it takes a bit to sink in. You are surely a help though. I did color code the big hound as Black, Tan, and white. Not one spot of ticking on him. Daddy was a faded tri, and momma is a Black, White, and tan with ticking.

The smaller hound I coded at black, tan and bluetick. It is harder to see the different shade of color in those pics. And now that he is older you almost couldnt tell at all. The hairs mixed in with his coat are not white. They are a bluish hairs mixed in with the black. He has white hairs mixed thru the tan on his legs. When we picked him out he was the darkest of the bluetick pups. The color on his chest is all but faded so you wouldnt know it was there unless you know what you are looking for.

Again thanks for the information ;)

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

samlyn0001 wrote:Excellent information!!!! I have a hard time understanding the genetics. Some I can get, others it takes a bit to sink in. You are surely a help though. I did color code the big hound as Black, Tan, and white. Not one spot of ticking on him. Daddy was a faded tri, and momma is a Black, White, and tan with ticking.

The smaller hound I coded at black, tan and bluetick. It is harder to see the different shade of color in those pics. And now that he is older you almost couldnt tell at all. The hairs mixed in with his coat are not white. They are a bluish hairs mixed in with the black. He has white hairs mixed thru the tan on his legs. When we picked him out he was the darkest of the bluetick pups. The color on his chest is all but faded so you wouldnt know it was there unless you know what you are looking for.

Again thanks for the information ;)
In your pictures the smaller hound has the same (black colored nose and brown eye) as the other black blanketed beagles in the pic. The smaller hound at least from the pics does not appear to be a blue. A blue will have a lighter colored (hazel eye) and a slate colored nose. The only place you ever hear such terms as "faded tri" etc. is from AKC Show types. The term is pretty meaningless from a genetics point of view since there is pretty much zero info on mode of inheritance of such coats. Hoiw much tan mixed with black constitutes a "faded tri". Ex. Young hound or puppy is Blk/Tn/Wh, as hound ages there are more and more tan hairs showing up in his coat. By 7 years old or so the hound has tan hairs interspersed virtually throughout the coat. Now at what point did the hound become a "faded tri"? I will guarantee his genes did not change. Just an example of people using terms, even registering hounds based on thier eyes and trying to over complicate or reinvent basic color genetics. Non of it supported by any documentation. There is some of this kind of stuff over in the color sections of the NBC web page. I sent e-mail after e-ail, contributed pictures etc. when it was put together and the person that put it together still does not get it. Things like calling chocolates "dilute" etc., putting a true "blue-tick" pic and calling it a blk/tick etc. etc. I took the pic of the "blue tick". His slate nose etc. is very obvious.

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Briarhopper,
The info you sent will not allow us to make a prediction about any possible colors in the pups. I would expect the pups to have an amout of white and ticking that would be a blend (or average) of the amount of color on both parents. Say 80 percent fall in the range between the parents, possible 20 pecent or less outside, either more or less percent color and ticking than sire and dam. If either the sire or dam has been bred previously and you know what color the pups were in those previous litters then we could make a better estimate of the color probablities that might be in the pups. From the info we have at this moment I would say you have about a 95 percent chance of having all Blk/Tn/Wh pups with varying amounts of color and ticking as was memtioned above. If you have more info about any previous offspring etc. of the sire/dam etc. let me know and I'll be glad to try and help.

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Junior from NJ started this thread. Junior (and everyone else) check out the Bryn Mawr hound show post over in the Various Beagling Event section. Go if you can. It will be a wonderful experience if you do go. Give us some feedback and better yet all the pics you can take. We will start a new thread. Take a good look at the conformation of both the beagles and Foxhounds. The packs have hounds that can do the job and they have been breeding for a longtime to develope hounds for thier particular hunt countries.

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samlyn0001
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Post by samlyn0001 »

:roll: The reason I used the term Faded tri is because his blanket back was not a solid black. Wasnt when we got him at two and it wasnt the day he died.
I guess I understand it differently than you do and will have to agree to disagree. I know what you are referring to as a blue pup. I had one myself. I know that their noses are gray, ect.
I have also been down south and seen plenty of bluetick beagles. I am not completely ignorant on the matter. I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge in the genetics department anyhow ;) You take care and hope your having a great day.

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