Half Brother/Sister Cross??

[sanfordssj]

I think this cross has all of the ingredients to be a goodone. First off you know the hounds really well and thier linage. Half brother and Half Sister crosses are common in breeding programs, it helps to lock in favorable Known traits, and adds to the repeatabilty to your line. Linebreeding and inbreeding are one of the best methods to a desired result.
I was gonna keep Quiet on this, but I can't Stands no more, because MTN VALLEY RAE FLASH is THE Dog I point to show how tight some of these lines are breed. He is directly out of Mtn-Valley Super Sport & Mtn-Valley Geisha Girl (A Full brother to Full Sister cross) & both of them are directly out of the same half brother and half sister crosses Top & Bottom.

No you shouldn't breed just off of pedigrees, but with a knowledge of the pedigree lineage and on the individual traits that a dog carries. Believe me, there are breeds and other bloodlines as tight as this.

I might just be in line for one of these Pups!

Do you think line breeding this hard causes more harm to the breed? Dogs that are bred tight seem to live shorter life spans. You see health issues and early unexplained deaths. You see this a lot in the dingus and patch bloodlines, and I feel that the Turbo line may be next. Guys are breeding tripple crosses now. Im not an expert or have ever claimed to be one about breeding, but love these types of post because I like to learn from what everyone has experienced. I just talked to a guy from one of the hottest bloodlines out there right now and he says he will never make a line bred cross with any dog in there kennel....everything gets out crossed.

[Moore Beagles]

Steve
I would never have the guts to breed some as tight as Flash, but never saying you will linebreed or ever inbreed, is kinda like saying I hope my grand children like to breed Beagles, so they can finish what I started!
You outcross to get what you don't have in your dogs, but if you have a greatone, why not breed to something somewhat close so you can have sometype of control or prediction on what you will have in your pups.

[mybeagles]

Moore Beagles,

but never saying you will linebreed or ever inbreed, is kinda like saying I hope my grand children like to breed Beagles, so they can finish what I started!

I was not the one who made the comment, but I don't think I will ever breed close again. Not because it's impossible to produce something, but because I don't have a big enough kennel to offer me a proper selection.

I keep 2-4 dogs at any given time and IMO thats not enough to offer the selection you need to be breeding close relatives. If I had 25+ in my kennel from similar breeding there would be a chance of breeding something closely related.

When I get ready to make a cross, which happens about every 3 years, I will look for the best male available, regardless of pedigree.

Also, there are thousands of kennels that inbreed/linebreed that pass on nothing but JUNK to their grandchildren. To suggest that you cant pass on a couple great dogs to your children or grandchildren and teach them how you did it without inbreeding is absurd. It's selection not pedigree!!!!

Do you know of any kennels that have "finished what they started"? I will always be working towards "better" and I think if any kennel is honest, they have ups and downs regardless of the breeding method.

Mybeagles

[sanfordssj]

I keep 2-4 dogs at any given time and IMO thats not enough to offer the selection you need to be breeding close relatives. If I had 25+ in my kennel from similar breeding there would be a chance of breeding something closely related.

Mybeagles

Kennel size has NOTHING to do with line breeding, inbreeding, selecting close relatives, etc... I dont see why you keep saying "If I had 25+ in my kennel". Does anyone posting on this thread have more than 5 or 6 dogs in there ENTIRE kennel? You breed one solid female to two different solid males and keep the best female/male and you will have your line bred cross. Takes three dogs to give you your 4th dog that is line bred out of YOUR kennel.

[mybeagles]

Choosing from 2 versus choosing from 25+ is much different in the way I look at it. I only keep 13" females and when I get one with good enough qualities to breed, I can choose from just about any male in the country.......litterally 1000's to choose from. I narrow that down to 3-4 and find out everything I can about them and what they are producing and I make my selection based on the percieved needs of my female.

I will agree this is a different approach from just continually breeding inside ones own kennel, but until I see the guys breeding close start producing a superior product, Ill stick with what experience has shown me to work.

I think the biggest difference is......Im not just looking for two "solid hounds" to breed. Im looking for two superior hounds that greatly exceed the average or norm. If I cant find that superior female in my kennel, I would rather purchase a pup out of a superior female bred to a superior male.

I have no ill feelings toward other approaches and encourage people to follow their insticts. When I see another method turning out better dogs Ill consider adjusting my approach. As for now, I can't see it.......the 6-8 dogs that have really caught my attention the last 20 years were all outcrossing of top shelf hounds.

There is a case to be made for line bred dogs that get outcrossed and produce a superior product, but again, keeping a small kennel, Im not going to keep average linebred dogs in hopes one of them will someday be a producer. Ill let the 13" male stud owners bother with all that.......

Mybeagles

[S.R.Patch]

Pedigree, selection and art, these are the tools of bettering your hounds. I like to look for certain crosses in a pedigree that have proven to be successful in producing quality hounds of a family. I like to look for hounds that have proven to be producers of the type and strengths we look for. Breeding is genetics, there is the hound you see, then, there is the genetic breeding material contained within each hound. How this material will match-up or "nick" is all determined at conception. How each hound will produce and how they perform are two different things entirely. The old adage is, " a performer and a producer are rarely one and the same".
"Red letter" breeding has been done for eons through the trials and hunters alike, if we're left to "best to best" without the pedigree and art involved for our hopes of improvement, I think we're spinning our tires.
Anything that breeds true is inbred, You don't see a Finch nesting with a blue bird, genetics has taught them to leave each other alone when breeding, tho they share the same feeder through the day.
Chasing the proper genetic material that each hound is endowed with at birth, that may contain the dominant or pre-potent ability to replicate itself of the kind we like, is a never ending struggle. Recessives are brought out, dominants are lost through poor evaluation or selection and the whole nature of the beast is a balancing act of instincts and levelheadedness, along with the gifts of being able to scent a rabbit.
Line/inbreeding is taking advantage of the percentage game,... you simply narrow the variables that are offered by reducing the number of different individual hounds involved in the pedigree, while at the same time "hopefully" intensifying the good quality of those involved displaying the best exhibition of those sterling qualities we look for in our hounds, this is where you hope for, "like begets like" from the matching of the genes(remember we narrowed the variables by using our one best bitch on both sides).
Most breeders of knowledge will tell you they always carry their bitch line through their breeding. Half brother, half sister is an excellent way to inbred to the bitch while maintaining the masculinity and structure of outstanding sires, in you pups. Breeding you bitch to different sires thus exposing the quality of her whelps, and if a high percentage develop into above average hounds, inbreeding these together will keep your bitch (%genetically)alive long after she's dead and gone...

[mybeagles]

I watched an interesting interview with a famous breed analyst for thorough bred horses. He was explaining how they have a famed horse that they are having a tough time finding a suitable mate for because he is indirectly related to most of the top phillies. In the multi-million dollar industry of breeding horses, close breeding is taboo. I wonder why the philosophy of breeding beagles is so different. What do beaglers know that thorough bred racers do not know?

Interestingly, thoroughbred breeders consider inbreeing, any pedigree with the same horse in a 5 generation pedigree. Anything duplicated closer than 3X3 (3rd generation with 3rd generation) is considered "radical inbreeding".

Here is a link to what is considered the most inbred stud around today.....named "Roberto". You don't see duplicate horses in the pedigree until the 5th generation where 1 horse shows up 3 times and two others twice. Most beaglers wouldn't even call this loose line breeding.

Roberto (pedigree). This is one of the most inbred pedigrees you're likely to find amongst modern sires. You'll see inbreeding to Nearco and Pharos and Mumtaz Begum and Plucky Liege and Blue Larkspur.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/roberto

Mybeagles

[sanfordssj]

I watched an interesting interview with a famous breed analyst for thorough bred horses. He was explaining how they have a famed horse that they are having a tough time finding a suitable mate for because he is indirectly related to most of the top phillies. In the multi-million dollar industry of breeding horses, close breeding is taboo. I wonder why the philosophy of breeding beagles is so different. What do beaglers know that thorough bred racers do not know?

Interestingly, thoroughbred breeders consider inbreeing, any pedigree with the same horse in a 5 generation pedigree. Anything duplicated closer than 3X3 (3rd generation with 3rd generation) is considered "radical inbreeding".Mybeagles

Interesting to wonder why it is taboo with horses, but we see it every where in dogs. Does it have to do with losing physical traits, losing inteligents, or health issues? Do these breeders know something we dont?

Chasing the proper genetic material that each hound is endowed with at birth, that may contain the dominant or pre-potent ability to replicate itself of the kind we like, is a never ending struggle. Recessives are brought out, dominants are lost through poor evaluation or selection and the whole nature of the beast is a balancing act of instincts and levelheadedness, along with the gifts of being able to scent a rabbit.

These two post are perfect examples why I'm looking at and constantly asking why, when, where, and what makes line breeding useful. Both look at total different sides of line breeding and this is exactly why this post is good for everyone who is reading it and taking part in it.

Most breeders of knowledge will tell you they always carry their bitch line through their breeding. Half brother, half sister is an excellent way to inbred to the bitch while maintaining the masculinity and structure of outstanding sires, in you pups. Breeding you bitch to different sires thus exposing the quality of her whelps, and if a high percentage develop into above average hounds, inbreeding these together will keep your bitch (%genetically)alive long after she's dead and gone...

I believe the bitch is the true carrier in ALL dominate traits. The reason I'm looking at this so hard is because I'm going to line breed a bloodline that the kennel from where it comes from will NEVER line breed it. They know the bloodline better than anyone and the reasons why are very good reasons. But, I feel like I can capture and improve on traits that this bloodline is already known for. I'm putting in my home work, and trying to educate myself as much as I can because I want to make sure i do this right the first time I try it.

[BCBeagles]

Guys I am glad this post has brought out so many varying opinions and I know it has provoked my thoughts. Something that has maybe pushed me toward this breeding is the fact that this female, in question, has had one litter with two surviving female pups. They are showing outstanding triats and are some linebred just not as much as this cross in question. I know my male is a better quality hound than the prior sire for the pups. I still have one of the pups and I started them both and they are both making above average dogs. Ours, Katy, is showing signs of being a top hound. Time will tell if I make this cross, we'll have to see. Thanks again for all the interesting information and points on this!!

[bwe007]

3 future breeding for our dogs father daughter. son to mother. and uncle to niece who by the way are also half brother sister.

[Moore Beagles]

SR Patch your post was right on the money!
I added the Grandchildren line, because i knew you would like that one Mybeagles! LOL What I understand about Race horses is that most bloodlines have already been inbred to the point that the bloodlines have weakened and suffered. What hurts them is they cannot step back and breed with frozen seman like we can with Canines. So that makes it a slightly different playing field for our favor. Plus there are alot more beagle breeders than race Horse breeders.
Linebreeding and inbreeding is what has started such a different divide in Show beagles vs field lines. They are almost different breds, although still the same. The repeatablity is so much more predictable in the top show lines and thats because of thier proven breeding programs which involve selective outcrosses to get what they don't have, and linebreeding to keep what they already have. you need a balance of both. The key is to know when a linebred breeding or an outcross will help with what you want.
Almost all of the best dogs are linebred something, it may not appear like it at first, but when you study thier pedigrees you should see it!

[mybeagles]

The key is to know when a linebred breeding or an outcross will help with what you want.

Moore Beagles,

How many guys out of 100 do you think know their dogs well enough to make that judgement call and actually improve the line? OR is that too subjective to measure?

Mybeagles

[R.Ooten (RUFF)]

http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65 ... eos002.mp4

The black and tan pups in this video clip are my 3rd gen. of these dogs. the grand sire is also the the great grand sire
and the great great grand sire and he was a grand pup of Macraes little Pete and Dingus Big Shot littermate brothers out of Dingus and New City Perkin Panda almost 1/2 brother/sister and you will see this cross 8 times in the black pups. all of these pups are 10 weeks old and this was there first look at a rabbit.

There will be a half borther/sister cross made here this spring on these pups sire and a littermate to there grand dame
and all of this from a kennel that keeps around 8-10 dogs including pups. But i will tell you
with a cross this close i will make a little bit of an outcross on the pups. I might make another half brother/sister on there sire.

[mybeagles]

Ruff,

There will be a half borther/sister cross made here this spring on these pups sire and a littermate to there grand dame
and all of this from a kennel that keeps around 8-10 dogs including pups.

I don't doubt that people are doing it......that doesn't prove it's producing a superior hound. If you win the Large Pack nationals this year with one of them you will garner some attention. If they never get any exposure, no one ever breeds to them, the merits of inbreeding will never be appreciated. When the inbred dogs start dominating the field, people will take notice and it will become a more valued option.

With 3 generations of inbreeding, what do you think is the greatest trait you been able to "lock in" that guys outcrossing cant get?

Mybeagles

[bwe007]

your going to lock in whatever traits the line has. they almost become clones of one another so to speak. the biggest thing is the consistency of the litters. with outcrossing it's a gamble you don't know what you are going to get. and even if you do get a world beater the chances of that dog reproducing himself are terrible.