Beagle takes 3rd in Hound Div at Westminster

[DDWBeagles]

Steve, good comments and well thought out. I'm not foolish enough to disagree as I have no first hand experience on long term endurance. Since this topic came up, that's been bugging me though. I posted the same question over on the Hare Board, but none knew of AKC show ring stock running in those trials. If you ever head down this way and are willing, I have a proposal. I will lend you one of my dogs and you can take him back with you for several months. I know my show beagles are faster footed than the average trail beagle, but I cant comment on endurance. You could prove or disprove that theory. If you're interested and would take extremely good care of the dog, I'm willing on my side . Thanks for the input and look forward to your response.

David Williams

[S.R.Patch]

Hey Steve, a very good post.

I've got one for you too, if you come down. Only problem is, he's got about 3" more leg than you like but if the snow keeps up I may convert you over to the big hounds ...lol...Patch

[Boomer]

One of these days, I'll take a show-bred beagle and compete in field trials. Maybe even dog shows, too!

The theory in group/show judging is that the judge is supposed to base his/her decision on how a dog matches the breed standard. We all know the beagle is the best, but he's got to be compared to the beagle standard while the Ibizan hound or whatever else is judged relative to the ugly Ibizan hound standard.

I don't know how to interpret the "miniature foxhound" wording. In my opinion, a beagle does look like a miniature foxhound. Miniature to me doesn't mean that the beagle should be the exact proportions of a foxhound but divided by 2, or 3, or whatever. I don't know exactly what was meant by that description or how literally it was supposed to be taken. After all, beagles are supposed to have a soft expression, and I don't think foxhounds have a soft expression.

[Steve C.]

Patch, when you get an example from your kennel that I can put under my arm and lug out of the woods after a long day, I'll be happy to make room for her! LOL. DDW, thanks for taking my post as constructive observation rather than criticism as that was the intent. Interestingly, my very best hound today has a glaring fault as to conformation (cow hocked) that doesn't seem to have hampered her ability but who knows- maybe with better hindquarters she'd have been able to have a bit more speed and endurance and would be a finished FC by now. I have two young males that I think are excellent according to my interpretation of the standard, item by item, but are racier in appearance than most beagles bred strictly for the bench. Not so much so as S. R. Patch's hounds, but on that idea. One of them can and will run all day, every day, then pace back and forth in the kennel. More endurance and energy than any hound I've seen. The other (his half brother) is a better hound in many ways, but doesn't have near the endurance. This makes me believe that conformation is only part of the equation. One of the reasons I participate in Large Pack trials is because generally they are an effective test of endurance, as opposed to SPO trials, which I also enjoy, but don't subject a hound to a true test of stamina. Endurance is no more important than nose, line control, competitive spirit, determination, cooperation, etc. but all these traits need to be tested for the complete hound. Running hare certainly gives one the opportunity to test for endurance as they are able to run virtually forever it seems. Many losses during a hare hunt are due to the hounds' inability to keep pressure on the quarry who eventually outdistances the hounds as the line grows colder. I had an example of that on the last run of the day yesterday as the hounds were tired from running all day in a foot of fresh powder snow. Endurance though is also a product of conditioning and I think most hounds can improve with more intense work. That's an interesting proposition to see how well your hounds could do with steady work on hare. I'm not sure that I have the time to devote to another hound as I currently have about 2 more hounds than I'd like to have in my kennel. I've gotten down to just 12 hounds right now and would prefer to be under 10 or so. I've made the mistake of having upwards of 25 and it was foolish on my part. I have several that are between 10 and 13 in age though, so remind me of this in the future if you will. Boomer, where I grew up, one of my farmer neighbors kept upwards of 60 foxhounds and they had regular hunts all during late summer til the snow got deep. I don't know if his hounds met the standard or not but they often ran a week before the last one made his way home. They killed a lot of foxes. You're right, they had no soft look to them, but otherwise didn't look much different than some of your hounds, other than adding a few inches in height and generally an almost gaunt build. They definately had a "greyhoundy" look. The hounds were "judged" by how long they stayed in the race and who was leading if the fox was eventually shot. The first night of the hunt was devoted to a lot of whiskey drinking by a bonfire deep in the woods but the next day, the fellows took up positions where the fox was known to run, sometimes many miles away from the point the fox was jumped. We sometimes had old Ralph's hounds show up at our farm 2 weeks after the hunt began. That was long before there was such a thing as posted land and anti-hunters and roads weren't the threat they are today.

[TomMN]

Good subject. I have some real problems with AKC shows, I feel they have been the downfall of several breeds of working dogs. I feel the UKC show beagles are closer to the type of conformation we should be looking for in a hunting beagle. I honestly don't know much about show dogs. I have owned one show champion coonhound and I have another in the kennel now that should finish into a grand show champion (with my daughter handling) but I have only been to one AKC show and that was many years ago. I do have a good idea what it takes to run hare all day in deep snow and cold temperatures. I think the average AKC show champion would do OK (physicaly). A freind of mine has a male beagle that has very good AKC type conformation that can run hare all day long and not show any wear and tear. He does not have the speed of some beagles though. I don't think he is able to run that fast for that long.
I have a couple females that do well in this type of hunting. They are less blocky and more "racey" looking than the typical AKC show beagle (my son calls them aerodynamic). They are both very athletic, fast moving dogs. I don't think they would do well in any AKC show.
On the other hand, I cringe every time I see some of the hunting beagles being advertised at stud in the magazines. Some of those dogs don't look like they could run to the food dish without a breakdown let alone chase a rabbit. From what I have seen, the AKC large pack dogs have the best "hunting" conformation on average.

[Bev]

One of the reasons I participate in Large Pack trials is because generally they are an effective test of endurance, as opposed to SPO trials, which I also enjoy, but don't subject a hound to a true test of stamina.

Steve, try being in a winners pack at an SPO trial when the judges can't agree. LMAO!!! (I couldn't resist )

[Steve C.]

Been there, Bev; and it was my dog they couldn't agree on. Unfortunately the judge who liked my hound lacked endurance and determination and we got the boot!