What still constitutes a bloodline

[Bev]

Hmmmmm.... you say "you betcha" yet Dingas influence cannot be seen in Ozzie's hunt or running style.

Those are your words, not mine. Ozzie is 31% Dingus and 69% other breeding. Of course the 31% influences his style, as does the 69%. Would 5%? Probably not. JMHO. And spending my life working the bugs out because I started at ground zero is what I would call "reinventing the wheel." JMHO, too. There are many good bloodlines that have a lot of the bugs already worked out. They just need to be improved upon and fine-tuned. Will we ever get a perfect dog? I don't think so, so in that respect we will always be working bugs. But, we have the luxury of skipping a lot of heartache, trial and error, and putting "hundreds" of worthless pups on the ground by drawing on those who came before us, breeders and dogs -- in whatever manner you choose.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

I have read several books on breeding better beagles and many articles on the subject by houndsmen with a lot more experience than many and have yet to see any of the authors play down the importance of pedigrees in bettering the beagle breed.
I'll just continue to research pedigrees and go watch different hounds and bloodlines run and those who discredit the importance of "paper" can do their thing....whatever that may be.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

The difficulty I have with pedigrees is that they will not tell you what traits are being selected for in a breeding,,,,,,,,,,,,,NO STATEMENT IS MORE TRUE' ONLY THE BREEDER CAN TELL YOU THAT,AND AFTER 34 YRS OF BEAGLES SOME TIMES, I TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT SOME OF THE GUY'S I'AM TALKING TO,KNOW,, HOW SOME OF THESE OLDER HOUNDS RAN, AND OTHER TRAITS ABOUT THE OLD HOUNDS,IF YOU DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS, ABOUT THESE OLDER HOUNDS',,,, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN TELL IF THE TRAITS' ARE SHOWING UP IN TODAY'S HOUNDS OR NOT,FOR-------- EXAMPLE I NEVER SAW' DINGUS MACRAE RUN BUT YEARS AGO I TALKED TO SEVERAL HOUNDSMEN I KNEW THAT HAD SAW HIM , AND I DID SEE PUPS OUT OF HIM ,THE HOUNDS I BRED TODAY SHOW SOME OF THE TRAITS I WAS TOLD ABOUT YEARS AGO,AND ALSO SHOW'S SOME OF HIS CONFORMATION FLAWS,I HAVE ONE HOUND' PINE MT CHARLEY 'THAT IF YOU LOOK CLOSE AT HIM YOU CAN SEE SOME DINGUS MACRAE COMFORMATION .AND RUNNING STYLE'' BUT AT TIMES YOU CAN SEE NORTHWAY SPUR INFLUENCE'' IN HIS HUNT AND DETERMINATION (I CALL GRIT)AND'' ON OPEN FIELD HUNTING AND RUNNING' YOU CAN SEE THE BIRCH LAKE TEXAS-T ,HEADS UP FLUID MOTION.AND SPEED.A LITTLE BIRD DOG STYLE YOU MIGHT CALL IT ----------..IT'S IS KINDA FUNNY I GUESS BECAUSE, DINGUS,SPUR AND BIRCH LAKE TEXAS-T ALL GO BACK TO -----MT ZION PETE---SO WHAT I'AM TRYING TO SAY IN A ROUND ABOUT WAY IS IF YOU DON'T KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE HOUNDS IN A PED.IT'S JUST NAMES-----GOOD LUCK-- I LIKE THIS POST--NO MATTER HOW LONG YOU BREED YOU CAN LEARN SOMETHING EVERY DAY,
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Laneline]

I enjoy coming on here time to time reading all these posts, I learn a lot from everybody’s points of views. But my ole buddy Ozzie was mentioned, which got my attention and I feel compelled to give my opinion on this subject. The size of the gene pool affects genetic variance {# of gene codes available with in one dog}, preventing undesirable traits from being washed “out” of a line or preserving desirable traits that a breeder wants, as those with similar genetic codes reproduce within a dog with every breeding. A beagle that reproduces with close relatives can reduce the amount of genetic variance, often making recessive or {desirable or undesirable} characteristics grow over time, as carriers “relatives” of a particular gene continue to breed and reproduce that same gene within. Whether through gene combinations in offspring or mutation, strong traits will tend to grow more dominant in a beagle. Alterations at the phenotype levels of physical traits, inherited behavior, or other observable characteristics can have an enormous affect on how a beagle hunts, his nose, brains etc… Generally, the “tighter” the gene pool, the more “common in style” your dogs will become, as genetic “high %” will weed out the “low %” traits and give dominance to what the breeder has specifically bred for. So if “Blue” is 60% of one line and the other genetic makeup is 10% Yellow, 10% Green, 10% Black and 10% Red, it is no longer 60% Blue attempting to dominate 40% of anything, it is 60% dominating 10% 4 times, which usually is easily overcome and accomplished. Now if the genetic pool is made up of two “line bred” dogs and one is 60% and the other is 40%, than you have more of an unpredictable outcome. The fact still remains, there are a limited amount of codes/genes and genetic makeup that is within a dog. The higher the % is, the more dominate his genes will be passed. In Ozzie’s case with the pedigree he has, Dingus MacRae is the dominating factor in his gene pool and biologically, Ozzie with his 31% should carry many of his characteristics and traits, especially if you breed him to a predominantly a Dingus bred dog. Is he Dingus MacRae’s clone? Of course not. Do other factors in the gene pool have a role? Absolutely. That 69% that you refer to is split up among many different lines with no “one particular” dominating line or gene/genetic code that will dominate the most dominate gene, which derives from Dingus MacRae. The least % amount is weeded out and usually has no effect after just a couple of breedings. Using a pedigree is valuable research when breeding if you are attempting to narrow the genetic variance in order reproduce certain traits and characteristics that you already have over and over again and preserve them. It’s almost like playing the lottery for $100,000,000 dollars, and you have the number 5. In the bucket is 100 numbers that they are going to pick from. Wouldn’t be nice if 31 {or higher} of those 100 numbers were the number 5? Wouldn’t it better your chances of winning? Will you create clones by doing this? Absolutely not. Will you create the perfect dog? Only the good Lord knows. But you do better your chances. It does not matter “where” a certain dog is in the pedigree, it matters to what “%” of the gene pool that particular dog dominates within the dog you’re breeding. Studying pedigrees and knowing the dogs in the pedigree is how you do this. Like “Pike Ridge”, I have read several books on breeding better beagles and many articles on the subject and have yet to see any of the authors play down the importance of pedigrees in bettering the beagle breed or any other animals. The dangerous aspect of breeding this way is it makes it harder to breed “out” bad and unwanted traits including medical, because this process can be a “catch 22”, it amplifies, preserves and passes on the bad traits as well as the good. My dogs are “Laneline”. They “derived” from Dingus Macrae, Yellow Creek with the Influence of Indian Hills. I don’t claim they are Dingus, Yellow Creek or Indian Hills, but those bloodlines are the main contributors. Never stated they were great dogs, but they please me and that’s all I care about. What constitutes a bloodline? When a breeder establishes dogs that can “reproduce” what he already has consistently at a high %. But that’s just my opinion. As far as Ozzie goes, at 11 years old I will be glad to dust his ears off and run with anybody, I guarantee that I won’t be embarrassed. Good Luck In Unlocking The Doors To The Good Lords Secrets, Jim Lane

[NorWester1]

That's a hell of read there Laneline....my head is hurting now

In Ozzie’s case with the pedigree he has, Dingus MacRae is the dominating factor in his gene pool and biologically, Ozzie with his 31% should carry many of his characteristics and traits, especially if you breed him to a predominantly a Dingus bred dog.

"SHOULD" carry many of his characteristics ? Does Ozzie share a similar running style, hunting desire and nose power to ole Dingus or doesn't he?

If he doesn't, how do you ascertain whether he is dominating anything in Ozzie biologically ??

[Laneline]

That's a hell of read there Laneline....my head is hurting now

In Ozzie’s case with the pedigree he has, Dingus MacRae is the dominating factor in his gene pool and biologically, Ozzie with his 31% should carry many of his characteristics and traits, especially if you breed him to a predominantly a Dingus bred dog.

"SHOULD" carry many of his characteristics ? Does Ozzie share a similar running style, hunting desire and nose power to ole Dingus or doesn't he?

If he doesn't, how do you ascertain whether he is dominating anything in Ozzie biologically ??

Well that’s the whole point, there are no absolutes. “Should” is the key word. You didn’t think I would leave that word out did you? Lolol Unless the technology was around to take a sample of Dingus and “clone” him you’re not going to get a duplicate. So you are right, Ozzie is not a duplicate of Dingus. But yes, Ozzie has inherited some of his traits. There was no way out of it, that was the way he was bred. When using this method, the only thing breeders can do is linebreed what they feel is the best dogs within the pedigree, narrow down the gene pool to a fewer % of “genetic choices” and pray that the positive traits get thrown and not the bad ones and then cull, cull, cull and then linebreed those that throw the positive traits. Is it an absolute? No. I made a cross last year and the female threw a lemon & white pup. The only lemon & white anywhere in either pedigree was a lemon & white male in the 6th generation on the Dam side. This pup was a blast from the past. The truth is, we are all working percentages and hoping for the best. But this takes years and anybody that says that their kennel does not have culls? Or anybody that says that their dogs have no faults? I think we know the answer to that. But I would still run Ozzie with anybody, and yes, writing that made my head hurt too, but watching football with Ozzie in front of the fireplace in this weather makes me feel a little better. It would be a lot better if I was watching the Browns, {no need for comments on that last part}.

[NorWester1]

So you are right, Ozzie is not a duplicate of Dingus. But yes, Ozzie has inherited some of his traits

I can't imagine anyone would expect a duplicate and I'm certainly not.

Which of his traits did he inherit? Track speed? Line running ability? Nose power? Check work? Hunting desire?

Please, I'm not looking to read about how he has blue eyes or the same coat color or anything of that nature as that isn't of any importance when breeding for performance based traits which I'm assuming is what we're concerned with here.

[RiverBottom]

Believe it or not, I read everything I can find on genetics and breeding dogs also. Here's one of the best I have seen:
http://www.shewmaker.com/digest94.pdf
The part about Selective Pressure is very relevant to beagle breeding.

In my case, and a very few others reading this thread, the Selective Pressure is applied by mother nature in the form of deep snow and extreme cold. Ol' Dingus may not have survived the cut very few do.

One thing I noticed over the years when watching and talking to successful hound breeders, is that very few of them had any textbook knowledge about genetics, or if they did, they did a good job of hiding it. On the other hand, almost all of them spent far more time hunting their dogs than the average houndsman. They knew every dog listed on the pedigree, inside and out, from first hand knowledge.

While we were studying books, they were out hunting their dogs. Some used linebreeding and inbreeding, some only outcrossed, but ALL relied heavily on Selective Pressure, even though they wouldn't know what you were talking about if you used that term.

Another thing they all had in common is that they stuck to their own line of dogs and paid no attention to anything else. You would not see one of these breeders on the internet, asking which stud dog to breed their female to. They usually had that planned out well in advance. They then kept several pups, hunted them half to death, and culled every one of them if they didn't measure up. The few that made it were usually far above average in ability compared to what everyone else was hunting, and they reproduced that way.

[klrconcrete]

Lots of stuff here for a fella to try and absorb, someone please hurry up and master this breeding stuff!! Sounds like a few of you have it figured right out! Good luck Kurt Robinson

[Tim H]

They knew every dog listed on the pedigree, inside and out, from first hand knowledge.

Why would they want to do that? I thought you said we should burn that info in order to better the breed.

If everyone reading this would take all their papers and burn them, the beagle breed would greatly improve.

One thing I noticed over the years when watching and talking to successful hound breeders, is that very few of them had any textbook knowledge about genetics, or if they did, they did a good job of hiding it.

I'd bet they didn't have computers either but that isn't justification for throwing out my computer so I can do it like they did. You're using your computer right now to tell everyone how you think breeding should be done. We always build on what those before us have done. Often with improved tools (computers, cell phones, shock collars, tracking collars, GPS) and hopefully a better understanding due to others experience and progress, such as the better understanding of genetics and how they work.

[DoubleEagle]

From what I have seen so far pretty much everybody agrees but has a different way of saying it. Pretty much all the posts I've seen agree that pedigrees shouldn't be the only thing we base our deciscions on. Any arguments, besides little misunderstandings, have really been people making similar points but using different words to say it.
Now that doesn't mean it's a bad post or should be locked. Heck... the opposite is true. People are getting more apples-n-oranges info on genetics here than you could find without spending money on a book or searching the web for hours. And that's what it's all about; bettering the breed. It doesn't matter how we say it... it is what we take from it that counts.
Now on a personal note I would like to thank Jim Lane for putting in some time on this one. I've always enjoyed his site and found almost all of the links there to be very useful. Never mind the headache Jim... keep up the good work.

Mike McCollough

[mybeagles]

The point I tried to make from the beginning was: if the traits are not present in the sire, dam,it doesnt really matter whats 3, 4, 5 generations back. Are the desired traits present NOW. To many breed based on the assumption that if Dingus is in the pedigree 10 times producing 31% of the genes, the traits must be there as well.

The pedigree then provides a "WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN, IF THE TRAITS WERE BROUGHT FORWARD" wishful thinking. If all the desired traits were brought forward from Ole Dingus to present you might have something "IF" you didnt lock in numerous bad traits through all the tight breeding. Thats a real big IF in my book.

We have several adds for dogs forsale that dont posess good qualities but are advertised as "WORTH IT JUST FOR BREEDING BECAUSE OF PEDIGREE". I hope we all see that as a falsity.

I think genetics are relatively misunderstood which comes out in these posts, but fortunately some have the education to steer the truck back on the road!

Mybeagles

[Laneline]

So you are right, Ozzie is not a duplicate of Dingus. But yes, Ozzie has inherited some of his traits

I can't imagine anyone would expect a duplicate and I'm certainly not.

Which of his traits did he inherit? Track speed? Line running ability? Nose power? Check work? Hunting desire?

Please, I'm not looking to read about how he has blue eyes or the same coat color or anything of that nature as that isn't of any importance when breeding for performance based traits which I'm assuming is what we're concerned with here.

Ozzie has 3 attributes that I believe are a throwback from Dingus. Determination/focus – he locks on a rabbit and nothing in this world around him matters. Nose- He can pickup scent when others can’t, he is usually the first to always bark on a scent. {Sometimes to the point that it can get him in trouble, but he always produces} Hunt- Ozzie would die before he will quit hunting and stand at your feet, in any circumstance or any condition. I come to this conclusion because I have seen many of Dingus’ offspring {direct} and many pups where Dingus was their grand sire. Pups from Jim Ritter who owned FC Macrae's Little Pete & FC Macrae’s Big Shot {littermate brothers out of Dingus}, FC Branko’s White Blizzard & FC Branko’s Close Call Girl {also littermates} were not too shabby either. Pups from Larry Perry {line bred Dingus dogs}, and I know Kenneth, Nick and Brad Hill and have competed against and have judged many of their dogs years ago {all line bred Dingus dogs}. What few outcrosses each of these gentlemen did have with their Dingus dogs were all from different lines, but after the culling process, all their dogs shared these same three traits. Have I had dogs that were faster, had better noses, better line control etc… Yes I have. But those that excelled in some of those areas severely lacked in another area. I have found it very difficult to find a more well rounded “total package” dog than the line bred Dingus dogs. But that’s just me, and I haven’t tried every dog out there. And these are great dogs to get pups from because they may not be great at any one thing, but they are good at everything and bad at nothing. They can’t do your line any harm. But I will say, the determination/focus & hunt part? I have never owned, judged or seen anything to come close in these particular areas. Do these dogs and my dogs have their faults? Just like every other line, yes they do. That’s what selective breeding and culling is all about. It helps to not only know the pedigrees, but the faults and strengths of the dogs in it. I don't know about most, but I focus on the faults of the dogs that I am breeding, not the strengths. I don’t worry about matching up strengths. Eliminate the faults, the rest usually falls into place.

Mike, Thanks for the kind words.

[mybeagles]

Laneline,

What are the faults your working to get out of this line? How do you get a fault out of a line that is 31% of one dog? Im sure Dingus has a few faults and with this much of his genes those faults should be pretty obvious by now. How many outcrosses do you have to make with dogs strong in that fault do you have to make to remove it? Im thinking of the 60%, 10%, 10%, 10%, 10% analogy you gave. Im guessing any fault would be locked in real tight.

Mybeagles

[Bev]

Good luck, Jim....answering "fault" question about Ozzie, lol.

All kidding aside, MyBeagles, nobody's trying to remove faults from Ozzie. He's being used to diminish fault and contibute/compliment good traits for future pups. Hopefully that's why we use any stud dog. The very fact that he is, after 5 generations have passed, still 31% Dingus MaCrae, is testament to the Hill's breeding tightly, and culling hard. One would think they found their desired model in Dingus, and used him to better their kennels. This being the case, It's not that Dingus himself was USED nine times, taking each subsequent litter back to him. He appears 8 times in the fifth generation. That means there were 8 halfsibs or sibs bred together, then their offspring were bred together, and so on.

When littermates, sibs, or even half-sibs are bred, you can pretty much count on one thing for sure. Traits good or bad will be cemented in the pups. The breeder must feel confident that he has 2 good, clean, fairly fault-free specimens with which to begin. Had those initial crosses produced duds or retards, that direction of breeding would have halted. The very fact that it was continue forward for 4 more generations within one kennel tells me that the Hills were getting desired results, and locking in those good traits in their hounds. Jim and I get to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and hopefully be good stewards of the bloodline.

Speaking of faults. A dog can't be very faulty and stay in the Hill's breeding program. Do you know one particular fault Ozzie doesn't have? You couldn't pour him on a deer or fox. You can't pour his littermates on one, either -- nor his sire and dam. Ozzie's never been corrected on deer. If a Hill pup ever shows an interest or runs one, it's not broken from it; gone from the breeding program. They will be naturally free of deer, or they won't be contibuting genes. How many of us can say that? I'm not worried about what "faults" need to be weeded out of Ozzie's line. Somebody already invented that wheel.