Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle

OLD LADIES DARLING · Post by **OLD LADIES DARLING** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:29 am

THE ABOVE POST IS MINE, SORRY, IT SAID SOMEONE ELSE HAD MY USERNAME. BUNNY BUSTER

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:23 am

Bob: Ive been too busy to be here so I am haveing to play catch up. Going back to page two I was and wasn't echoing what you said about picking up hunt. Of course you were right but there are important differances between a hound who merely exhibits the trait you are looking to pick up and a hound who comes from a family who is know to produce the trait you are looking to pick up. The hound who comes from the family know to produce the trait you want to pick up is more likely to produce it in his progeney. You also did not mention, maybe to save time in typeing, the fact that the hound you breed too should also have as many of the traits you already have and wish to keep as possible. If one were to breed to a hound that is dissimilar to the hounds you already have but only has the hunt you are looking for you would be introduceing many unwanted traits that you would then later have to cull out. The thing you want to do is keep as much as you already have as possible while picking up what you need.

A true lemon and white hound is the result of the inability to produce the color black. Note the red noses of the lemon and white hounds. Your example of the lemon and white breed is a good example of my point of the double recessive appearing to produce as a dominant. The only genes either parent can contribute are the reccessives for the lemon and white and so ALL progeney are lemon and white giving the appearance in the phenotype that it is a dominant trait. That trait, since it breeds true for that breed CAn, not will, but only can, in a way that I cannot explain, change to a dominant charactor for that lemon and white color over time. Why, I don't know either. But it is an important thing to know. If you have bred your hounds to be pure for a recessive trait they COULD, but again not certainly would, in time pass that trait along as a dominant. An example MIGHT be the brace hounds who do now certainly pass their trait of slow to their offspring. I say Might because I have no actual experiance in breeding them. Certainly that trait is 'set' in them though.

The lemon color is a good example of what you were saying of partial dominance as well. Because the hound who merely carries the gene for the lemon color is recognizeable. The Back blanket he shows in his phenotype is partially diluted.

More later got to go.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:53 am

Ya you should breed to hound that has as many of the same qualities as your original if you outcross for a certain specific trait. If the lemon were to become dominant and has the lemon gene on both chromosomes and is therefore purebred, then you should be able to breed that lemon to a tricolor and get all lemon pups. Try that and let me know what happens. I will wager that anytime you do this, you will get some tricolor pups. You will either get about half tris or you will get all tris depending if the tri parent is hybrid or purebred for it. There may be exceptions, but not likely. Any wagers????

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:55 am

Would certainly welcome some other opinions on this scenerio. You can even throw in some facts if you want.LOL

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:11 pm

Bob: Again you are right about the way the lemon color would produce. Note carefully that I said COULD turn to a dominant but not that it would definantly. In our hounds the lemon is a recessive and I don't know of any hounds where this particular trait has turned to a dominant charactor. However that is why I also used the brace hounds as a possible example. Now maybe they are just pure for the slow foot speed one would have to act8vely breed them to know how that trait is passed to their progeny.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:49 pm

Wingpatch: Identical twins are not exactly identical. While they have inherited MANY of the same genes they have not inherited all of the same genes.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 1:33 pm

Joe West Quote:A true lemon and white hound is the result of the inability to produce the color black. Note the red noses of the lemon and white hounds.

This is a good topic! Joe since i got this from your post I will direct this at you but I hope others will respond also.

Here is my question: If a true lemon and white will not produce black how would one explain a lemon and white beagle with :

1) black Noses
2) very dark eyes (almost black)

I have hounds like this and know of a couple of very prominent lines that also have this characteristic.

Alright guys educate me!

Thanks

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:08 pm

Patchman: Your hounds are not true lemon and whites they are tan and whites. While they may appear vary similar in color they are not the same. I beleive eyes are inherited on different loci then coat color.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:14 pm

Diamond P: Stan Rawlinson has answered your question on like begats like on page 1.

Patchman · Post by **Patchman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:32 pm

Joe,

I hear what you are saying and was leaning that way myself and could bite it more if the dogs were a tan color but they are infact a lemon color.

If this is true then do true lemons have pink pads on the bottoms of their feet and green or yellow eyes only. I ask the pads question cause if true lemons can't produce black there is no way for the pads of their feet to be black.

To furhter complicate this if true lemons have light colored pads would they tend to have more tender feet in rough running. I am thinking of this cause as a kid my grandfather stayed away horses with white or light colored hooves cause he said they would have soft feet and be hard to keep shoes on them.

If this case be true in beagles what would anyone breed for this wouldn't it be counter productive to a hunting beagle.

Thanks

Brian

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 2:48 pm

Bob: moveing on to page three. Mendelian law is most useful in explaining what happened in a breeding after the fact. Mendel mistakenly went on the beleif that each trait was inherited from a single locus or single pair of genes. That is why mendelian law cannot explain everything. It was later discovered that traits are the product of the influence of genes at two or more loci. Many traits are the result of gene complexes and mendal was not prepared for that. The trait we see in the phenotype may be the result of the dominance or recessiveness of any one of several sets of genes. So you see when the female you speak of contributes her half of the genes to the progeney her contribution will be more complexly distributed then you suggest. That is, it won't be exactly 50% one way and 50% the other way because the trait is the result of a gene complex. There will be several different ways the progeny can inheret that gene complex and the more loci that affect that trait the larger the combination of ways the dam could statistically contribute it. That is, there are more then just two ways for her to contribute that trait and the more loci that affect the trait the more combinations are possible for her to contribute.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:37 pm

Patchman: See my post to Bob above. Remembering that the color is the result of gene complexes; the effects you are seeing are the result of modifier genes which are seperate form the primary genes and they mearly influence the effect of the primary genes. While the lemon color is certainly recessive in your friends hounds the effects of the primary genes are influenced by the modifiers and therefore your friend is likely to see both the red nose and the black nose caused by the effects of these modifiers. Remember since the color is not caused by genes at a single loci there are different combinations of the color that are possible. IN effect the black nosed hound, while having the primary genes for the lemon color lacks the needed modifiers to cause the nose to be red. One might say he is not a pure lemon and white. Now I haven't really studied the genetics of coat color all that much because as I've said before I don't care too much about it as long as they are a true hound color. Bob seems to have studied it more then I and perhaps he can explain it better. I might not even have it exactly right but I won't be far off because it is defenantly the effects of the modifiers that are causeing the difference in nose color. Further more; for our purposes as breeders knowing that the effects are caused by modifiers is all we really need to know.

As for a true lemon haveing softer pads all I can say is I haven't found that to be the case in my own hounds. Color and texture are two different traits. Those that we have had with red noses and lighter pads had light brown eyes if memory serves me right. Right now we have three lemons and none have all red noses. Two have some red on their noses and one has a black nose. My experiance is limited to hounds with brown eyes. Some are nice and dark and some are light to an almost yellow. A better question might be why would anyone breed for any certain color? Remember the more traits that you breed for the more difficult it is. So why breed for something as non essential as color in the first place. I can understand show breeders breeding for color but breeders of hunting hounds need to breed not only for conformation but for many other things the show breeder does not. I've got my hands full already and will not worry about something like color. If I were to breed for color it would be at the expense of something else.

laal · Post by **laal** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:06 pm

CHRIS, I'm going to back out of this. I think I see where you are coming from about the cold nose? I belive folks in the south call a dog that opens on a cold trail a cold nose dog. The beaglers from up north where the temp. gets much lower call a dog that can smell the rabbit (hare) on a cold day is a cold nosed dog. I think Joe and Bob have more than cold nose on there minds, I like reading there post and who knows I might learn something,,, DAH.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:34 pm

You're right laal, it looks like color won out over cold-noses in the discussion. The color of a dog doesn't matter to me near as much as nose. I'd take a pink and purple striped hound if it could run well when others couldn't. I'm going to stay focused on that.

steve · Post by **steve** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:18 pm

Bob this question is for youI just had alitter of 6 pups 2 m 4 f I would like to know how the dominant and ressive works here.The mother has dew claws I don't know any other history on her parents,the male didn't have dews,his father did and mother didn't.The pups are 2f 1m don't have dews and 1m 2f have dews.I plan on keeping 1f without dews,will she still carry this trait or is she ressive and won't pass this on.Also is it possible to have ressive traits for one thing and dominate traits for another thing in the same dog.I hope this makes sense.If not please help to understand,thanks Steve