Big Dogs .Just curious ?

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

ukc doesn't have class sizes.... you just can't be over 15.

[Joseph J Murphy]

Dave :
Actually thats not the issue at all.It has nothing to do with why I made the post? That's why I didn't post it in the How Bad you wanna win thread.I Have been running ARHA off and on since 1992 .I can probably count on one hand the number of times that I think a dogs size helped him win a cast and that was as others described when it was heads up running and in fairly open country .The Mini dog I got from you was about 12 to 12 1/2 and she could hold her own with about any dog she was run with .I loved to watch her run in open country more than I did in the thick stuff.The reason for my post is that my Dad has a very small male that I am thinking about campaigning starting next Spring or fall .All the debate about size has me wondering if I have just been missing something all this time and maybe I should run him in 13 inch AKC rather than push him in ARHA .Thats why I wanted feedback from other people to see if they see it differently tan I do.So far no one has said that size has beat them often As far to the rest of your post I very much agree with it especially in regards to AKC Large pack.I would imagine its easy for smaller hounds to get pushed to the outside and get in the habit of running the pack rather than running the line.
THanks
J Murphy

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I think if you have a small dog and a big dog of EQUAL ability the big dog has advantages in certain situations.If I lived in the north country and did a lot of mid-winter hare hunting in deep snow I would want a bigger hound.I know and have seen 13" hounds do a good job but still would opt for the bigger hound.
If I lived in hare country and ran primarily hare I would again opt for the bigger hound .Again have seen 13" hounds that can pound a hare but would opt for the bigger hound. Here in cottontail country I don't think it makes any difference.
If you run A.K.C. Large Pack on Hare trials you don't want a 13 1/2" hound to run in the 15" classes.They are called "tweeners" by the trialers and you can hardly give em away amongst the trialers.Too big for the little class and too small to run with the big dogs consistantly.If you don't think the size can matter watch that little 13 1/2" dog as the trial gets into the say 6-7 hour of running and he's getting pulled hard by dogs alot leggier than he is.
I've sold two females in the past for real good money for the sole reason that they were 13" and were getting pulled way too hard by their 15" kennel mates.They were of the same breeding and style but just stayed small.
As always JMHO.

[mike crabtree]

Cant say size has beat me. I run mine right up against "15. It takes a biggun to beat me cause of size. I have won because of size though . Ask Rowco about a hunt in NC a few years back . Chrome was just too strong. His 13 inch female came out strong , but Chrome didnt have to kill him self to keep up with her. He just ran at his pace which is pretty steppy. The lil bitch just got tired cut and dry. Had she been "15 she wouldnt have had to put out so much effort to stay up and would have no doubt won the hunt.

[Joseph J Murphy]

Dana and Mike :
Good answers .Maybe some of the times I lost with the little female it wasn't as much about conditioning as I thought and more about size. I should have specified that my question was really directed towards ARHA LP more so than any other format.one of the reasons I have never worried about it is that casts are only an hour.I can see where you are running considerably longer than that size could become more of a factor particularly in AKC LP.

[mybeagles]

Joe,
Would you then be an advocate for removing the size limit. If someone through select breeding could get some 20-22" beagles would they still not have advantage. I don't think 1/4" will beat you or give big advantage but I do think 2+ inches and 20#'s could make a difference. I've owned more than a few 12" gyps that would learn to skirt and reach when run regularly with big 15-17" males. When run with dogs their size they would stay in much tighter. I'm not afraid to run with big dogs and often do, but I do think bigger dogs have significant advantage in competition. As Neil stated there are lots of variables, but all things equal bigger dog wins.

[Joseph J Murphy]

Dave :
You keep trying to turn this post into something it's not even about . I purposely avoided the other thread because I didnt like all the mudslinging and Drama . If you want to change the context of this thread ,why not just make your own ?However to answer your question.No I wouldn't advocate removing the size limit ..Somewhere down the line I have gotten old .I have become resistant to change . However if the powers that be feel the need to change a rule I will abide by it to the best of my ability.Since you seem to want to swerve this thread into something it's not even about I will go ahead and answer your questions like this was the other thread. I think the breed standard is there for a reason.I think people should follow the rules .However if someone else chooses to skirt the rule by running an oversize dog I really don't care.They can bring a coonhound if they want.I am either gonna win or I am gonna lose .Thats the same result as if the dogs are the the same size .I have never asked for a dog to be measured and I doubt seriously that I ever will . On the flip side if someone wants to measure one of mine then that is their right .Thats not gonna bother me either.
I ran a dog for a couple of years in AKC Midwest.We had measured him multiple times from 14 to 14 1/4 .Probably a dozen people told us to put him in the 13 inch class and he would probably finish.There were several in the 13 inch class that were bigger than him and most of the " 15 in" looked like monsters compared to him.I never entered him in the 13 inch class because I knew what his true size was and what class he belonged in.Winning just wasn't that important to me and I hope it never is.
Like I said earlier I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen size make a difference in ARHA LP. I think it is pretty telling that so few people have responded that they have either won or lost a cast due to size .Thats pretty much exactly the same as I see it . Sure it happens but not that often . I have seen plenty of 13s beat plenty of 15s simply because they had a great deal more ability ,and this includes running in open country.
Win or lose I am going home with the same dog I came with.If they win they aren't any better than the day before and if they lose they aren't any worse.The key to what both you and Neil said is " all things equal" ? Neil also said that he didnt think size made much of a difference in the ARHA LP format.I think it's pretty seldom that all things are perfectly equal.and usually the thing that is not equal that makes the most difference in ARHA LP is ability not size. Or at least that is what I believe...So next Spring or Fall I will bring out my little bitty dog and see what he does in ARHA and maybe Midwest too.I don't know if he will be successful in either but I am sure I will have a good time finding out.

[mybeagles]

Didn't realize I was "mud slinging". I asked some questions and stated personal experience.
Sounds like you just want the opinions of those that agree size doesn't matter.
Unless you can get into the mind of a dog not sure you can determine what affect size has. It's clear to me in the canine world size intimidates but I can't read a dogs mind, just see them cower to a larger animal. If 100 people respond and 90 say size doesn't matter does that determine size doesn't matter. Could it be that mans ego and overestimation of their dogs abilities prevent them from exercising sound common sense judgement? Failure to recognize or admit the reason you get beat doesn't change the reason you get beat. I will grant you the fact that better dog can overcome size disadvantage. Not sure what your gunning for in this thread? If size is only the determining factor in a few cases does it then become irrelevant? You want to always keep threads relevant to your world (ARHA LP) where controversy over size and measuring is forever an issue, yet somehow separate the issue from the issue. I will avoid your posts in the future to ensure you only get the LP perspective on life....enjoy your bubble

[chapkosbeagles]

all i can say is when i was trialing ace. everytime he won. which was everytime
I was called a cheeter cause my dog was too big and would squat when he seen a stand. i always said he is big but that has nothing to do with his nose,brains,line control,and jumping ability. but i have not seen many 13inch hound that could run against him and stey in the race

[Joseph J Murphy]

Ttttttt

[Joseph J Murphy]

Chapko .You say that Ace won every time.How many trials did you enter him and how big was he?

[Alabama John]

Theree is no size standard in Tree dogs, fox dogs, etc. but there has always been in beagles. Two classes, 13 and 15.
I know some that cross beagles with jack russells and some with dashounds, and some with red bones. I see some 20 inches tall.
Sure are good rabbit dogs, but still not a beagle. Run what you like to hunt and run with, but to trial you must meet the long standing rules or we will start registering those mixed dogs and calling them the new beagles.

[South Woods kennel]

Size doesnt matter, we run 13s and 15s together no excuses...... Its the size of the heart in the dog not length f its legsthat matters unless the snow is deep enough where the 13 cant tough and the bigger hound can thats the only way it matters.

[Little Indian Creek]

Size doesnt matter, we run 13s and 15s together no excuses...... Its the size of the heart in the dog not length f its legsthat matters unless the snow is deep enough where the 13 cant tough and the bigger hound can thats the only way it matters.

South Woods Kennel, would you agree that a 15" or 16" dog has more room for a bigger heart and lungs than say a 12" or 13" dog ? What about the potential for different structure all together such as longer leaner muscle that requires less oxygen which in return would require less heart ?

[nchunter102]

I agree that if a dog has 2 inches or more on your dog then yes that does give him an advantage, but he still has to have the ability. Just run 14-15 inch dogs and it won't be a concern